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  • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

    Just what would you do with someone who is hell bent on killing anyone who is not a Muslim?

    I'd try and reason with them rather than your solution of just killing them all.


    • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
      I'd try and reason with them rather than your solution of just killing them all.
      That's not what hell bent means.


      • Originally posted by Commodore View Post

        That's not what hell bent means.

        Maybe but we should be above the terrorists in that our solution should be a bit more nuanced than just killing people.


        • The "most extreme" in this case means the people who hack off people's heads, especially their leadership with the hit men who literally execute their propaganda. No, it wouldn't involve just killing people (OMD), and it would also not involve a helluva lot of reasoning with them (Peter). Some reasoning should be done, in order to proceed with court trials against those that can be brought to world court. My preference is grinding the ISIS movement into dust via the boring, anti-romantic method of trials and dull delivery of a life sentence for the guilty. That can't be done for all cases, nor should we put the lives of special operations (operating like a SWAT team) in extreme danger to get every leader and other key players to court trial.

          If the best chance they have of controlling a particular ISIS target is to take him out, rather than arrest and remove him, then so be it. The UN, unless I'm mistaken, would be in agreement with this strategy and tactic. As for the grunts -mass of fighters- under ISIS leadership, that should depend on the situation. Of course they take it in the shorts if they stand between the Big Targets and special ops (call in airstrikes or some other stand-back method). Otherwise, they become witnesses to the cowardice masquerading as martyrdom by ISIS leadership. Those who insist on continuing the fight regardless of the dwindling numbers of leaders are less organized and easier to pick off. Those who give up can be the "coup de grace" against extremist movements; they who criticize the demented violence for an insane movement, can be the most believable when they were once the disposable grunts used by that movement.


          • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
            Maybe but we should be above the terrorists in that our solution should be a bit more nuanced than just killing people.
            Depends on how you are defining nuance.


            • Originally posted by Commodore View Post
              I'm certainly not defending the actions of the Obama regime. They have despised all desperately needed reforms and progress in that region, pursued by both parties for decades, and have been determined to see them fail since day one. They then act all confused and offended when everyone points out that the region is falling apart.
              The Obama regime doesn't have a short term solution. Brussels might not have a short term solution. But the short term solution, along with the long term solution is evident to anyone not afraid of their own shadow.

              Self-determination is the only workable solution, for both the Sunni and Shia. The Ayatollahs are violently opposed to it. What do you thing should be done about that?

              [COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=13px]No one is saying that the immediate needs of the refugees should not be met. But one also has to deal with the root cause.

              There really is no downside for the Ayatollahs to keep propping up their proxy. Especially since we just gave them a $100 billion to keep doing it, to thunderous international applause, by those struggling most to deal with the refugees of Iranian proxies. Welcome to the twilight zone.

              1. I dont think Obamas role in the region was a very productive one either. You only draw red lines that you actually want to enforce. Otherwise it is better to shut up. You dont prop up one dictator ( Maliki/Iraq) that oppresses the same people (Sunnites) that you are supporting just right across the border in Syria while expecting a positive result. The alternative explanation is that you are seriously clueless or have other agendas than playing a constructive role. And you dont duck responsibility on an issue like the refugees, that threatens to open far more dangerous stability issues than a few oriental despots when you want to be seen as leading. But I am not naive enough or lacking memory and knowledge enough to believe that the issues started with Obama.

              2. No, the US have no solution because they are part of the problem (should I mention Iran and Mossadegh, the Shah and a certain ally called Saddam Hussain ?) The US are furthermore deeply involved in regional geopolitics via their gulf arab allies and have no credible claim to be a honest broker this time. Europe ? Is obviously on the frontline of the refugee crisis, but has diverging interests. The UK and partially also France are playing their own regional games (the UK has also "opted out" of any european refugee policy. Which means they intend to leave the problem to the "continentals"). Germany and a number of allies are trying to work out european policy responses and have pushed through an EU -Turkey deal. Shortly put it means that refugees arriving on greek Islands will be detained there, instead of beeing waved through to central Europe. On a number of islands they are sorted out in those with letigimate claims to asylum and those without. Those without will be deported back to Turkey, and the EU in return takes for each of them one Syrian living legally in a turkish camp. Wether this deal actually works remains to be seen, but it is at least a step forward and could destroy the business of the human traffickers. Additionally it is far easier and safer to screen resettlement candidates while they are still in Turkey. Yet it also means that a considerable part of the EU and Turkey share interests (even though the EU supports syrian and iraqi Curds as the currently most effective ground force against IS, while Turkey fights them)

              3. Iran has little in common with the Assad regime, their support is tactical. Iran considers IS a mortal enemy, they want to avert a Saudi-backed sunnite regime in Damascus at all costs and they want to ensure a land connection to their shiite comrades along the Mediterranean. But these policy goals are neither new nor limited to the Ayatollahs. They are part of a regional power struggle that is partially older than Islam, and no, the US are not going to solve it. You neither have the political capital nor the cultural understanding for it nor are you willing to bear the cost.
              For a short term solution an accepted interim leadership for Syria needs to be found ( that cannot just be picked by one side, and precisely for that reason, is nowhere visible). For a long term deal the borders of dysfunctional states need to redrawn, but not imposed, and most certainly not by western powers.

              4. And one last word on the refugees : Action (or the lack of it) speaks louder than words. Also on the part of the US.
              By the way : There are various alternatives thinkable to the US taking refugees itself. Like pressuring esteemed gulf arab allies to do it. Saudi-Arabia, Qatar or the UAE may have a few billions to spare and a little space for fellow arab victims of a war that they added fuel to for years, like by arming proxies and financing puppets. The Gulf sheiks and emirs might also know a thing or two where IS money and imports come from, since .....right, you got it ( probably a certain Osama bin Laden, who had lifelong ties with a certain kingdom, rings a bell). You may just have to ask kindly enough.
              Last edited by Voland; 04-07-2016, 03:47 AM.


              • Voland noted....

                The alternative explanation is that you are seriously clueless or have other agendas than playing a constructive role
                I know the avid GOPher voters want to believe that obama is a simpleton, just so stupid as to be clueless, and thereby inept. But to believe that is a sign that he is not the one being stupid and clueless here. And so, what explains the obama foreign policy in the middle east are other agendas, and not his agendas, although they probably throw him a small bone occassionally to make him think he still has some say, as the most powerful man on earth. If one pays attention, one can still see neoconism at work, continuing to indulge in ideologicalh driven irrationality, which renders US middle eastern policy, a tremendous failure, at best, and the cause of millions of deaths at worst, driven by the interplay of politics and elite profit. It is a foreign policy driven by a total lack of intelligence, lacking any motive to actually solve the instability that we intentionally created.

                Our policy is a tale told by an idiot, while the other idiots call for more and more of it. Wee have men in power who believe the US should wage war in order to change the middle east to a more favorable place for our elites to exploit, pillage and rape economically, in the interest of max profits.


                • Like any power that believes it's empire stage is somehow a blessing, the US has decided the "beatings will continue until morale improves". Until we get over that stage or otherwise control our national ego, we'll have to hope the ME will at least try to find an internal solution. That class of remedy usually works best, anyway.