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Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

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  • Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

    First we must ask what makes a coherent country. To me this means despite regional and economic differences that the majority of the population shares a vision of what the country is and what it stands for.

    Here in Canada we have an ethnic divide between the French and the English,. It has been a source of divisions over the years and yet Canada endures because across this ethnic divide there are some overriding cultural norms that hold us together more than separates us. These cultural norms are tolerance, respect for the diversity and willingness to compromise and cooperate.

    In the US the divide is not so much ethnic as political. The left/right blames the right/left for all the troubles in the country. Partisan politics is as divisive a force in US today as any other since the North –South in the Civil War. It is worse than the young-old divide of the Viet Nam era.

    Has this gone so far as to make it no longer possible or practicable for the US to continue as one country or should it split along red/blue state lines into the Conservative States and the Liberal States of America?

  • #2
    Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

    Originally posted by RDK View Post
    First we must ask what makes a coherent country. To me this means despite regional and economic differences that the majority of the population shares a vision of what the country is and what it stands for.

    Here in Canada we have an ethnic divide between the French and the English,. It has been a source of divisions over the years and yet Canada endures because across this ethnic divide there are some overriding cultural norms that hold us together more than separates us. These cultural norms are tolerance, respect for the diversity and willingness to compromise and cooperate.

    In the US the divide is not so much ethnic as political. The left/right blames the right/left for all the troubles in the country. Partisan politics is as divisive a force in US today as any other since the North –South in the Civil War. It is worse than the young-old divide of the Viet Nam era.

    Has this gone so far as to make it no longer possible or practicable for the US to continue as one country or should it split along red/blue state lines into the Conservative States and the Liberal States of America?
    I think we have to accept that countries are not really sovereign. Some pretense is made, but in reality most politicians are owned by monied interests. Most western countries are actually a new world order of interests of the powerful, who make decisions for all western countries. Continuity of policy between them on issues that matter (money / banking / trade) show this alliance.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

      The U.S. in violation of the self-determination principle since 1861, when it made clear that peoples seeking to use their inalienable right to autonomy will be met with violence.

      That makes it hard to know if it is viable as a coherent country.

      Unless the U.S. apologized for the civil war, but that has not happened yet as far as I know.
      Last edited by erikvv; 07-25-2012, 09:15 PM.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

        Originally posted by erikvv View Post
        The U.S. in violation of the self-determination principle since 1861, when it made clear that peoples seeking to use their inalienable right to autonomy will be met with violence.

        Unless the U.S. apologized for the civil war, but that has not happened yet as far as I know.
        I know a whole bunch of people, people that you wouldn't like at all, that say exactly the same thing!

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

          Yeah we area viable nation, the left vs right game is not a defining element of local populations. So called red states and blue states are not populated by partisan majorities among the citizenry. The politicos and our incompetent news media play the game because its easier for them not because it is a true reflection of the will of the people.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

            Pluralistic democracies can't endure without a commitment to constitutionally limited government. The "willingness to compromise and cooperate" cited in the OP depends on a solid trust that the majority can't force itself on the minority willy-nilly. THAT is what we've lost, and if we hope to remain solvent as a nation we have to get it back. I'm not sure it's possible.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

              Originally posted by RDK View Post
              First we must ask what makes a coherent country. To me this means despite regional and economic differences that the majority of the population shares a vision of what the country is and what it stands for.

              Here in Canada we have an ethnic divide between the French and the English,. It has been a source of divisions over the years and yet Canada endures because across this ethnic divide there are some overriding cultural norms that hold us together more than separates us. These cultural norms are tolerance, respect for the diversity and willingness to compromise and cooperate.

              In the US the divide is not so much ethnic as political. The left/right blames the right/left for all the troubles in the country. Partisan politics is as divisive a force in US today as any other since the North –South in the Civil War. It is worse than the young-old divide of the Viet Nam era.

              Has this gone so far as to make it no longer possible or practicable for the US to continue as one country or should it split along red/blue state lines into the Conservative States and the Liberal States of America?
              You can't split the country because the difference is not regional, it shows up as a slight polling advantage for Liberals in some areas, and a slight advantage for conservatives in other areas, but the advantage is slight, it gets exaggerated by our first past the post election system. There were so called "Red" states that voted for Obama, that is hardly the makings of a civil war.

              Don't let the hype fool you, some people make it sound like the political differences are much bigger than they are, in the end the real differences are rather small, and not the stuff that makes for violent revolution.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                Originally posted by RDK View Post
                First we must ask what makes a coherent country. To me this means despite regional and economic differences that the majority of the population shares a vision of what the country is and what it stands for.

                Here in Canada we have an ethnic divide between the French and the English,. It has been a source of divisions over the years and yet Canada endures because across this ethnic divide there are some overriding cultural norms that hold us together more than separates us. These cultural norms are tolerance, respect for the diversity and willingness to compromise and cooperate.

                In the US the divide is not so much ethnic as political. The left/right blames the right/left for all the troubles in the country. Partisan politics is as divisive a force in US today as any other since the North –South in the Civil War. It is worse than the young-old divide of the Viet Nam era.

                Has this gone so far as to make it no longer possible or practicable for the US to continue as one country or should it split along red/blue state lines into the Conservative States and the Liberal States of America?
                Meh.

                There are no "red states" or "blue states". There are purple states, some of which might hue slightly to the blue side of the spectrum and others slightly to the red side.

                But during election cycles, the minor differences are magnified and exaggerated by politicians who are desperate to keep their jobs and who need to find a way to make the same behaviors they personally engage in look bad when the "other side" does it.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                  Goober and I are from the same region, we don't agree in the area of politics (why should we) and yet we've both enjoyed the same thing, we are part of the same culture. Id rather be free to argue with him and others in our society and nation than be stuck in a petty 3rd rate republic built on disagreement and hate.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                    Originally posted by RDK View Post
                    First we must ask what makes a coherent country. To me this means despite regional and economic differences that the majority of the population shares a vision of what the country is and what it stands for.

                    Here in Canada we have an ethnic divide between the French and the English,. It has been a source of divisions over the years and yet Canada endures because across this ethnic divide there are some overriding cultural norms that hold us together more than separates us. These cultural norms are tolerance, respect for the diversity and willingness to compromise and cooperate.

                    In the US the divide is not so much ethnic as political. The left/right blames the right/left for all the troubles in the country. Partisan politics is as divisive a force in US today as any other since the North –South in the Civil War. It is worse than the young-old divide of the Viet Nam era.

                    Has this gone so far as to make it no longer possible or practicable for the US to continue as one country or should it split along red/blue state lines into the Conservative States and the Liberal States of America?
                    As an interesting side note, while the left/right divide is certainly real and in many cases quite stark, I have started to see regionalism and ethnocentric attitudes rise.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                      Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                      Goober and I are from the same region, we don't agree in the area of politics (why should we) and yet we've both enjoyed the same thing, we are part of the same culture. Id rather be free to argue with him and others in our society and nation than be stuck in a petty 3rd rate republic built on disagreement and hate.
                      Do you mean "culture" as in that of the north east?

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
                      But during election cycles, the minor differences are magnified and exaggerated by politicians who are desperate to keep their jobs and who need to find a way to make the same behaviors they personally engage in look bad when the "other side" does it.
                      And it seems like those cycles are never ending now.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                        Originally posted by RDK View Post
                        First we must ask what makes a coherent country. To me this means despite regional and economic differences that the majority of the population shares a vision of what the country is and what it stands for.

                        Here in Canada we have an ethnic divide between the French and the English,. It has been a source of divisions over the years and yet Canada endures because across this ethnic divide there are some overriding cultural norms that hold us together more than separates us. These cultural norms are tolerance, respect for the diversity and willingness to compromise and cooperate.

                        In the US the divide is not so much ethnic as political. The left/right blames the right/left for all the troubles in the country. Partisan politics is as divisive a force in US today as any other since the North –South in the Civil War. It is worse than the young-old divide of the Viet Nam era.

                        Has this gone so far as to make it no longer possible or practicable for the US to continue as one country or should it split along red/blue state lines into the Conservative States and the Liberal States of America?
                        Nope. We just need the republicans to join back in with america, instead of separating themselves out, and then pointing out and bragging about their "specialness".

                        You can trace back the vitriole to the the republicans once Reagen could serve no longer and with the rise of right wingnut talk radio and the right wingnut Fox News. Both of these have worked hard to give us a divided nation. They actually thought they were doing the nation a good turn. Reminds me of the Nazi party ascending, except I am not comparing the nazis and republicans. Just the rise of both. The nazis had their great enemy, the jews, and the republicans have theirs, the working man, the poor, the middle class. The working man, the poor is blamed for everything here in the States. The SS elites of Germany and the 1 per centers here are similiar, in that both are "special" and worshiped by the Nazi, uh, I mean republican party. The one per centers are the new Aryans, the superior beings, that we should all strive to be. Everyone else is a worthless piece of shit, and a drag on america.

                        Now that I think about it, Mitch McConnell does remind me of a nazi. All he needs is the uniform and the Heil Hitler.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                          Nope. We just need the republicans to join back in with america, instead of separating themselves out, and then pointing out and bragging about their "specialness".

                          You can trace back the vitriole to the the republicans once Reagen could serve no longer and with the rise of right wingnut talk radio and the right wingnut Fox News. Both of these have worked hard to give us a divided nation. They actually thought they were doing the nation a good turn. Reminds me of the Nazi party ascending, except I am not comparing the nazis and republicans. Just the rise of both. The nazis had their great enemy, the jews, and the republicans have theirs, the working man, the poor, the middle class. The working man, the poor is blamed for everything here in the States. The SS elites of Germany and the 1 per centers here are similiar, in that both are "special" and worshiped by the Nazi, uh, I mean republican party. The one per centers are the new Aryans, the superior beings, that we should all strive to be. Everyone else is a worthless piece of shit, and a drag on america.

                          Now that I think about it, Mitch McConnell does remind me of a nazi. All he needs is the uniform and the Heil Hitler.
                          Thank you for demonstrating the validity of Godwin's Law.

                          The truly amazing, and honestly fairly pathetic, part of this is that you cannot see how you are doing the exact same thing you decry.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #14
                            Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                            Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                            Goober and I are from the same region, we don't agree in the area of politics (why should we) and yet we've both enjoyed the same thing, we are part of the same culture. Id rather be free to argue with him and others in our society and nation than be stuck in a petty 3rd rate republic built on disagreement and hate.
                            The other thing to remember is that the policy differences are rather small, only a few people want to do away with Social Security and Medicare, and like Eisenhower said "they are stupid".
                            The real difference is that the Democrats would like to spend a little more on Social Security and a little less on the military and the Republicans would like to spend a little less on Social Security and a little more on the military. That's not deep rooted fundamental difference that requires bloodshed to settle, it's a battle of words, and in the end the difference who wins is so small it's hardly noticeable.
                            The Health Care thing sounds like the end of the world, but look closer at the Democratic plan, an individual mandate, that causes you to pay a little more tax if you don't have health insurance, vs the Republican Plan, a tax credit that lets you pay a little less tax if you have health insurance, and it's hard to tell the difference.
                            There are differences, but not the kind that result in violence.
                            When I was in college in the early 70s, with campus protests, and stuff going on, a foreign student from India said "Oh, you are not very political in this country" and I said "Hey, we're having a protest march
                            next week", and he said "In India the dormitories are assigned by political party, and a group from one party raided a dormitory where the students were from another party, and threw some of the students they found in the dorm off the roof, killing them", and I said "you're right, we aren't that political".

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                            • #15
                              Re: Is the USA still viable as a coherent country?

                              Originally posted by goober View Post
                              The other thing to remember is that the policy differences are rather small, only a few people want to do away with Social Security and Medicare, and like Eisenhower said "they are stupid".
                              The real difference is that the Democrats would like to spend a little more on Social Security and a little less on the military and the Republicans would like to spend a little less on Social Security and a little more on the military. That's not deep rooted fundamental difference that requires bloodshed to settle, it's a battle of words, and in the end the difference who wins is so small it's hardly noticeable.
                              The Health Care thing sounds like the end of the world, but look closer at the Democratic plan, an individual mandate, that causes you to pay a little more tax if you don't have health insurance, vs the Republican Plan, a tax credit that lets you pay a little less tax if you have health insurance, and it's hard to tell the difference.
                              There are differences, but not the kind that result in violence.
                              When I was in college in the early 70s, with campus protests, and stuff going on, a foreign student from India said "Oh, you are not very political in this country" and I said "Hey, we're having a protest march
                              next week", and he said "In India the dormitories are assigned by political party, and a group from one party raided a dormitory where the students were from another party, and threw some of the students they found in the dorm off the roof, killing them", and I said "you're right, we aren't that political".
                              I think there actually is a divide in the electorate. But as you point out, not so much when it comes to our leadership. They all want pretty much the same thing - and it has very little to do with what voters are after. They play us off each other - scaring liberals with horror stories of right-wing hell, and threatening conservatives with impending socialism - but when you look at how they actually govern, most all of them are corporatists. The 'divide' is, at the same time, very real and a totally phony puppet show to distract us from the machinations of power.

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