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Religious freedom in the USA. WTF??

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  • Religious freedom in the USA. WTF??

    The USA was founded on the principle of freedom of religion.

    They were the first modern nation that I know of that enshrined the concept of freedom of religion and freedom from a government religion into their constitution.

    To be clear, freedom of religion is freedom of all religions, not the freedom to practice whatever form of Christianity you want to follow. It is freedom to be any or no religion.

    Since this has been the law of the land for over 200 years, why then is the US the one modern nation on the planet where religion forms such a major part of public life? Just the rumours that Obama was not a Christian was enough in many people’s minds to bar him from office.

    There are still places that try to impose a government religion. School teams having mandatory prayer sessions before games, judges trying to place biblical quotes in their courtroom.

    And let’s not forget Dishonest Donald from wanting to ban a complete religion from entering the USA.

    These are usually justified that it is a local matter and the local majority supports it but individual rights are not to protect the majority and allow them to enforce their will on a minority but are to protect the minority from the persecution of the majority.

  • #2
    It's mostly dishonest fraudulent rhetoric in much of the country. We need people brave enough to stand up and say "your faith is your own business" but with politicians pandering as much as they can to as many people as they can they don't want to offend potential voters. Many so called Christians do not live a Christian life and are generally ignorant of The Bible and what they claim it says. There wouldn't be hungry children, there wouldn't bee cold and lonely old-folks if a good fraction of the so called Christians actually walked the walk as opposed to wallowing in self-righteous drivel.
    I want governemtn to be as far from religion as possible and religion as far from governemtn as possible because if they aren't they become one in the same and you end up with child abusers, rapists ,and thieves running everything... (oh yeah)...

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Originally posted by RDK View Post
      The USA was founded on the principle of freedom of religion.

      They were the first modern nation that I know of that enshrined the concept of freedom of religion and freedom from a government religion into their constitution.

      To be clear, freedom of religion is freedom of all religions, not the freedom to practice whatever form of Christianity you want to follow. It is freedom to be any or no religion.

      Since this has been the law of the land for over 200 years, why then is the US the one modern nation on the planet where religion forms such a major part of public life? Just the rumours that Obama was not a Christian was enough in many people’s minds to bar him from office.

      There are still places that try to impose a government religion. School teams having mandatory prayer sessions before games, judges trying to place biblical quotes in their courtroom.

      And let’s not forget Dishonest Donald from wanting to ban a complete religion from entering the USA.

      These are usually justified that it is a local matter and the local majority supports it but individual rights are not to protect the majority and allow them to enforce their will on a minority but are to protect the minority from the persecution of the majority.
      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...
      First, it says CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It says nothing about the States or local governments. Activist judges have taken this phrase, twisted and contorted it to mean something it doesn't say. There is no right to freedom from religion. There is nothing that says a Christian who is elected to office cannot express his religious beliefs through his votes. The purpose of the Amendment was to prevent another Church of England becoming the government. The rest of the phrase, prohibiting the free exercise thereof has been thoroughly dismissed as irrelevant. If I exercise my beliefs by refusing to recognize a gay marriage or by opposing abortion, I am now a bigot and misogynist. If I want to pray out loud in a school, I have committed an unpardonable offense. Thus, I no longer have the rights given in the First Amendment.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        You have the right to be as pig headed as you like and people also have the right to call you out for that and yes being against gay marriage and abortion does make you a bigot and misogynist you'll just have to live with that.
        As for the opening post I think he's 100% right in that conservatives only want their type of religion in the US (mainly christian and only a certain type at that) and all you have to do is look at just how bonkers you all go over a simple sign or a park bench dedicated to atheism to see just how much they value freedom of and from religion.

        Americans are free to be religious just as long as it's the right religion and conservatives will also act the victim if you point out the ridiculousness of this position and say that they are being persecuted while they themselves castigate people for being in the US and practising any (or none) religion they don't agree with.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
          You have the right to be as pig headed as you like and people also have the right to call you out for that and yes being against gay marriage and abortion does make you a bigot and misogynist you'll just have to live with that.
          You're demonstrating that you are pig-headed and bigoted maybe ?

          Being "against" abortion merely means a person does not beleive in ending a human life at any stage. Not bigoted or pig-headed.

          Being against "gay marriage" merely means a person does not support or embrace sinful behaviour. Not bigoted or pig-headed.

          And we do not "have to live with" being insulted by people just because we don't agree with their positions on certain issues.


          Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
          As for the opening post I think he's 100% right in that conservatives only want their type of religion in the US (mainly christian and only a certain type at that) and all you have to do is look at just how bonkers you all go over a simple sign or a park bench dedicated to atheism to see just how much they value freedom of and from religion.

          Americans are free to be religious just as long as it's the right religion and conservatives will also act the victim if you point out the ridiculousness of this position and say that they are being persecuted while they themselves castigate people for being in the US and practising any (or none) religion they don't agree with.
          I think the only "religion" we might have trouble with & be against, is one that so regularly breeds violence against women & gays, one that so regularly breeds people who want to kill us for not being a part of their religion !! For not becoming a ........ for not "submitting"

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Those who believe in nothing will fall for anything. It's funny how outraged those who believe in nothing get at those who believe in God and Jesus.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post



              First, it says CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It says nothing about the States or local governments. Activist judges have taken this phrase, twisted and contorted it to mean something it doesn't say. There is no right to freedom from religion. There is nothing that says a Christian who is elected to office cannot express his religious beliefs through his votes. The purpose of the Amendment was to prevent another Church of England becoming the government. The rest of the phrase, prohibiting the free exercise thereof has been thoroughly dismissed as irrelevant. If I exercise my beliefs by refusing to recognize a gay marriage or by opposing abortion, I am now a bigot and misogynist. If I want to pray out loud in a school, I have committed an unpardonable offense. Thus, I no longer have the rights given in the First Amendment.

              Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

              You are 100% correct. This clearly says that the FED Gov't can make no law. It says nothing about the Federal Gov't having the right to oversee what the States are doing regarding religion. It's simply the Fed gov't participating in the childish mindset, ("If I have to follow these rules, then you, the States, have to do it too"). The Federal Gov't has no constitutional justification for this. The first Amendment does not tie the hands of the States or the citizens. It only ties the hands of the Federal Gov't. There is only one interpretation of what congress is. It's not State gov't, not an individual citizen, not a business owner, not a private non profit organization. Congress is simply the law making faction of the Federal Government, and only the Federal Gov't.

              Any Supreme court justice who interprets the first Amendment as anything but restriction of the Federal Gov't from making law in any aspect in relation to religion, is bias, corrupt, and unconstitutional. They are WRONG.

              Telling public schools that they can't display religious symbols IS the fed. gov't. making law respecting religion:

              ***If the Federal gov't forces schools to display religious symbols, by law, it is making law respecting religion. Non-compliant with the First Amendment.
              ***If the Federal gov't forces schools to remove all religious symbols, by law, it is making law respecting religion. Non compliance with the First Amendment.

              The second part stating that Congress/Federal gov't can not prohibit the free exercise thereof. Members of the gov't are also citizens entitled to freely exercise their religion.

              ***If a gov't employee doesn't want to participate in any religion, the federal gov't has no right to force him.
              ***If a gov't employee wants to exercise there freedom of speech respecting religion, the federal gov't has no right to prohibit them.

              If no personal items were allowed to be displayed in federal buildings, banning personal religious symbols would be consistent, but if individuals are allowed to display personal pictures, poses with other politicians, sports paraphernalia, momento's from children, family, friends, on their desks and walls, then religious symbols can not be restricted. In fact the first Amendment protects the display of religious symbols, not financed or demanded by the Federal Gov't. where non religious personal items are not.

              Those who say that someone has to keep their religion to themselves is in direct opposition with the First Amendment. It's hard to misinterpret what free exercise means.

              The first amendment restricts congress from making law respecting religion:
              ***If the federal gov't is not making a law forcing adherence to one religion over another, then it is in compliance with the first Amendment.
              ***If the federal gov't makes any law forcing adherence to or prohibition of, it is non-compliant with the first Amendment.

              As far as I know, there is no federal law that forces someone to follow or penalizes someone for not following Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.

              However where the federal gov't is non-compliant with the first Amendment is making Atheism the law of the land. (Prohibiting free exercise of religions). (Making law respecting religion). (Abridging freedom of speech respecting religion).


              What we have here is the libs. redefining what Free Exercise, law, prohibit means. They can't understand the difference between being forced by law and being emotionally uncomfortable. Nor do they understand the difference between freely exercising and the factitious right to not see or hear what is being freely exercised.

              The only constitutional rights a citizen who doesn't want to participate in one or any religion has, is: 1.- The right not be forced or penalized by federal law regarding adherence. AND 2. - the right to LEAVE if you don't like what you hear or see.
              Last edited by msc; 10-09-2016, 07:52 AM.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                Those who believe in nothing will fall for anything. It's funny how outraged those who believe in nothing get at those who believe in God and Jesus.
                How does that affect the outrage by Fox news and others about a simple banner or park bench dedicated to atheism?
                They act as if Christians are so weak willed that even the merest hint that atheism exists will shake their beliefs to the core and cause the downfall of US society and the scale of that outrage bears no resemblance to the actual fact that atheism is still only a tiny fraction of the US population.
                Oh by the way being atheist doesn't mean we believe in nothing it just means we don't believe in God or organised religion there's a massive difference which I have no doubt will fly right over your head.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post

                  How does that affect the outrage by Fox news and others about a simple banner or park bench dedicated to atheism?
                  They act as if Christians are so weak willed that even the merest hint that atheism exists will shake their beliefs to the core and cause the downfall of US society and the scale of that outrage bears no resemblance to the actual fact that atheism is still only a tiny fraction of the US population.
                  Oh by the way being atheist doesn't mean we believe in nothing it just means we don't believe in God or organised religion there's a massive difference which I have no doubt will fly right over your head.
                  Your playing word games. When it is said that Atheists believe in nothing, it IS meant that they don't believe in a God/Higher Authority.

                  People who believe in God are standing up for Something. No offended by Atheist, just sad for them. What offends people of God is when Atheist attempt to debunk God as relevant or real.

                  Atheist are protesting against people of God. Offended by people who believe in God, with the constant attempt to debunk God. Why? If an Atheist believes that God does not exist yet others believe, why does the Atheist want to take away what brings others peace. Should the compassionate Atheist not be understanding and happy for the people who have found a way to find peace in this unpeaceful world? Maybe the Atheist should mind their own business. If they claim science is the only reality, there are plenty of public scientific: statues, pictures, and displays, Promoting the reality of science. So Christians believe in this, but also something more. Why does it piss off atheists so much that others believe in something more? If one is confident in their Atheism, then they should have no concern with outward worship of religion. As long as the constitution is abided by, than Atheist are not harmed by the worship of God.

                  My theory is that Atheists that are trying to remove God from out country, are angry little people and misery wants company. Inside they are envious that others have this faith that brings them peace that they can not find. Again like the childish libs, they actually feel, (if I can't find this peace, then I don't want you to have it).

                  NOTE: I'm not speaking of the Atheists who just don't believe in God, that go about their business respecting the faith of others, without mocking people of God, and not trying to remove God from public. I know a few Atheists like this, and happen to have great respect for them as they happen to be good human beings.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by msc View Post
                    My theory is that Atheists that are trying to remove God from out country, are angry little people and misery wants company. Inside they are envious that others have this faith that brings them peace that they can not find. Again like the childish libs, they actually feel, (if I can't find this peace, then I don't want you to have it).
                    Yep, a park bench or sign is really going to smash religion in the US and I don't think you're in any way shape or form able to talk about the motivations of atheists given you clearly have zero interest in having anything to do with them or being civil about them.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      People who reject the power of Posiden or wisdom of Odin are doomed !!!!

                      See how silly that looks? Would you want the kids praising Thor in the pledge of allegiance every morning?

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                        People who reject the power of Posiden or wisdom of Odin are doomed !!!!

                        See how silly that looks? Would you want the kids praising Thor in the pledge of allegiance every morning?
                        Christianity is a religion based upon the teachings and miracles of Jesus. Jesus is the Christ. The word "christ" means anointed one. Christ is not Jesus' last name. Jesus is the anointed one from God the Father who came to this world, fulfilled the Old Testament laws and prophecies, died on the cross, and rose from the dead physically. He performed many miracles which were recorded in the Gospels by the eyewitnesses. He is divine in nature as well as human. Thus, He has two natures and is worthy of worship and prayer.

                        Christianity teaches that there is only one God in all existence, that God made the universe, the Earth, and created Adam and Eve. God created man in His image. This does not mean that God has a body of flesh and bones. Image means the likeness of God's character, rationality, etc. Because we are made in the image of God, every person is worthy of respect and honor. Furthermore, this means that we did not evolve through random processes from a single-celled organism into rational, emotional beings.

                        God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden of Eden and gave them the freedom to choose between right and wrong. They chose to sin. Sin is doing that which is contrary to the nature and will of God. For example, God cannot lie; therefore, lying is sin. The sin of disobeying God that Adam and Eve committed resulted in them being expelled from the Garden of Eden as well as suffering the effects of death.

                        As a result of their sin, their children and all of us inherited a sinful nature. In other words, our offspring are not perfect in nature. Think about it. We don't have to teach children to be selfish or how to lie. They know how to do these things naturally. This shows that we are born in a fallen state.

                        Christianity teaches that God is a Trinity(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not three Gods), that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity, that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead physically, and that all people are under the righteous judgment of God because all people have sinned against God. It teaches that Jesus is the only way to be saved from the coming judgment of God and that salvation is received by faith in the work of Christ on the cross and not by anything that we can do to please God.

                        Where all other religions in the world teach that we must do some sort of good in cooperation with God in order to achieve the right to be in God's presence, Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation by grace. This means that we are not made right before God by our efforts, sincerity, or works. Instead, we are made right before God by faith in what Christ did on the cross.

                        Christianity further teaches that once a person is "born again" (becomes saved) that the Holy Spirit lives in that person and the person is changed: "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17). This means that God actually lives in the person and the Christian then experiences a true and living relationship with God.

                        Therefore, "What is Christianity?" is best answered by saying that it is a relationship with the true and living God through the person of Jesus Christ by whom we are forgiven of our sins and escape the righteous judgment of God.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by msc View Post

                          ....

                          My theory is that Atheists that are trying to remove God from out country, are angry little people and misery wants company. Inside they are envious that others have this faith that brings them peace that they can not find. Again like the childish libs, they actually feel, (if I can't find this peace, then I don't want you to have it).

                          '....
                          My theory is that Christians that are trying to force their God on the country, are angry little people and misery wants company. Inside they are envious that others have this freedom from the dogma of their religion that brings them self fulliment that they cannot find. Again like the childish cons, they actually feel, (if I can't find this freedom, then I don't want you to have it).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post



                            First, it says CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It says nothing about the States or local governments. Activist judges have taken this phrase, twisted and contorted it to mean something it doesn't say. There is no right to freedom from religion. There is nothing that says a Christian who is elected to office cannot express his religious beliefs through his votes. The purpose of the Amendment was to prevent another Church of England becoming the government. The rest of the phrase, prohibiting the free exercise thereof has been thoroughly dismissed as irrelevant. If I exercise my beliefs by refusing to recognize a gay marriage or by opposing abortion, I am now a bigot and misogynist. If I want to pray out loud in a school, I have committed an unpardonable offense. Thus, I no longer have the rights given in the First Amendment.
                            Government shall be a religion free zone and religion shall be a government free zone fort the protection of both.

                            That does not mean that you can vote for and support policies that are in agreement with your religion. It does mean that you cannot enforce your religious laws on pothers without their consent unless there is a valid secular reason for it.

                            For example Christianity says thou shall not kill.

                            That does not mean that outlawing murder is a support of Christianity because there is a valid secular reason for a nation/state not allowing its people to kill each other.

                            You do not get to decide if you recognize gay marriage. Marriage, at least the secular part of it, is granting of the designation of next of kin and certain property sharing rights, to anyone who want to exchange these rights.

                            Your only option in gay marriage is if you will have one or not.

                            Same with abortion, as long as it is the law of the land, and it is, your only option is to have one or not and stay the fuck away from anyone else making their own decision on the matter.

                            And yes you can pray anytime and anyplace you want, as long as your doing so is not disruptive. For example someone who has a prayer ritual that involves jumping up and down yelling and singing could not do it in a library.

                            If there is a rule that you cannot talk out loud in a place, for example a school then you cannot talk out loud there. Praying or talking about grabbing a woman's pussy it doesn't matter. Just be quiet because there is a rule in place that has a valad secular reason behind it.

                            If you want to pray quietly, or better silently, then by all means go ahead.

                            You appear to think that your freedom of religion allows you to make as much noice and disruption as you want to practice your religion and everyone else has to put up with your actions.

                            Would you feel the same way about a Muslim practicing his religion and ritual prayers that involve kneeling and bowing if he decided to do it in the middle of the freeway?


                            To determine your actual tolerance for true religious freedom, think of someone from a religion that you disagreed with doing a very similar thing to what you want to do in your religion and see just how much you support it.


                            Church bells and a mosque call to prayer for example?



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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                              Christianity is a religion based upon the teachings and miracles of Jesus. .......

                              Therefore, "What is Christianity?" is best answered by saying that it is a relationship with the true and living God through the person of Jesus Christ by whom we are forgiven of our sins and escape the righteous judgment of God.
                              So what?

                              Government shall be a religion free zone and religion shall be a government free zone fort the protection of both.

                              Explaining wjhat you religious beliefs are does not justify the establishment of any sort of state religion.




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