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Acts of Faith

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  • Acts of Faith

    Some of you are probably aware of the biblical account of the offering of Isaac. It is given in Gen 22, for those who wish to read the account. With that as a backdrop for this discussion, my question is for our religious posters:

    If you believed your God told you (by any means of revelation you choose) to kill someone, would you do it?
    Last edited by Steerpike; 11-24-2012, 03:56 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Acts of Faith

    Isn't it a common tactic for religious leaders to claim that god has told them and through them their followers to go and kill in the name of a peaceful and loving god?

    Since a lot of people do go and kill because they believe that their god told them to do so, I'd wager that the truthful answer of all the religious people here would be yes.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: Acts of Faith

      I think when voices in your head tell you to kill someone, you are better off seeking professional help, than obeying the voices.

      Or you can hope that your psychosis becomes the basis of a world religion......

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: Acts of Faith

        I God wants someone dead, it will happen. If God appears before you and tells you to kill someone, you will do it. If you don't believe that, you have no concept of God.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: Acts of Faith

          Originally posted by Steerpike View Post
          Some of you are probably aware of the biblical account of the offering of Isaac. It is given in Gen 22, for those who wish to read the account. With that as a backdrop for this discussion, my question is for our religious posters:

          If you believed your God told you (by any means of revelation you choose) to kill someone, would you do it?
          Before I go to the question, let’s give your backdrop a little fuller context. Abraham was a, literal, friend of God; that is, they spoke face to face; the Lord came and sat in with Abraham in the front of Abraham’s tent ‘during the heat of the day’ in Genesis 18.

          So, right off the bat, this is a different issue than some whacko taking a scripture out of context and using it to justify murder or mayhem---or jihad.

          If I was in Abraham’s shoes I probably would have done the same thing. But when I read that text I can’t help but get the sneaking suspicion that Abraham knew God would intervene. And here is the clue: when Isaac asked Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was, Abraham said, “God will provide Himself a sacrificial lamb.”

          Of course, we know now that the whole point in the exercise was to give a type and shadow to Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, many centuries later.

          The perfect Lamb of God was the sacrifice given for all of humanity..

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: Acts of Faith

            Originally posted by Steerpike View Post
            Some of you are probably aware of the biblical account of the offering of Isaac. It is given in Gen 22, for those who wish to read the account. With that as a backdrop for this discussion, my question is for our religious posters:

            If you believed your God told you (by any means of revelation you choose) to kill someone, would you do it?
            The problem is Genesis 22 is not really a story about God commanding someone to kill someone else, it is really a story about a trial before God. Some may refer to it as being faith tested as the ultimate conclusion of the trial is “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son" (Genesis 22:12.) Later in Genesis there is even mention of reward for going through such a test which involves occupation of enemy lands (or cities.)

            Of course I have plenty of problems with the concept of such a trial, but then again we are talking about typical Old Testament wrath of God, inflicted fear of God, and stories of punishment for lack of obedience and belief. Benevolence is out the window on this one as this is a rather punishing test to put one through taking your only son, binding him down in fear, and being stopped just before murdering him. Theological debate says that God offered plenty of hint that nothing would really happen to the boy but in the context of the gravity of that moment you are really talking about fear induced obedience. For the trial to be passed one could argue well Abraham had to have been prepared to kill his son which also means being uncertain what the conclusion of the trial would be. Old school Jewish thinking suggests this was just that, a monumental test before God. Christianity suggests this was about Abraham's willingness to give up his own son as a sort of preface to God doing the same thing with Jesus. But for me personally the key part of Genesis 22 seems to be the point of the test, ensure there was fear. Once you get into the books of the New Testament these sort of faith based trials are not quite the same, and often explained in different ways.

            To your question though, in today's society you are going to have significant problems going with anything close to "God told me to kill" in the explanation of loss of life. We can have philosophical conversations all day about the killing of one being about the protection of others, and at that point I suspect theology will become a footnote (if even mentioned at all.)

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: Acts of Faith

              If god came down as told me to kill ANYONE, I would immediately know this was no God. And I would turn my back to him. In the same way I would have nothing to do with a god that got into a game with Satan and caused Job not only to lose his possessions but also his family. That sort of god deserves no worship, he is not worthy of it. And I am glad it was just a myth to begin with. Never happened. An outright fabrication of the human brain.

              Also the idea that the death of christ was like killing a lamb to get rid of sin is the silliest thing ever invented by the brain of man. Mankind has turned christ into something he never was, and have ignored the teachings in order to treat him like an animal that must lose its life to save mankind. We did this so we could continue living our beastly, greedy little lives. Sin like hell during the week and go to confessional to get clean again, only to repeat it for a lifetime. Nothing gets any sillier than that. It's a cosmic cop out. We can then continue on living our lives driven by the pursuit of pleasure.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: Acts of Faith

                Originally posted by Darth Hussein Omar View Post
                Before I go to the question, let’s give your backdrop a little fuller context. Abraham was a, literal, friend of God; that is, they spoke face to face; the Lord came and sat in with Abraham in the front of Abraham’s tent ‘during the heat of the day’ in Genesis 18.

                So, right off the bat, this is a different issue than some whacko taking a scripture out of context and using it to justify murder or mayhem---or jihad.

                If I was in Abraham’s shoes I probably would have done the same thing. But when I read that text I can’t help but get the sneaking suspicion that Abraham knew God would intervene. And here is the clue: when Isaac asked Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was, Abraham said, “God will provide Himself a sacrificial lamb.”

                Of course, we know now that the whole point in the exercise was to give a type and shadow to Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, many centuries later.

                The perfect Lamb of God was the sacrifice given for all of humanity..
                Nah, that myth was intended to be a spiritual teaching that addressed the death of the self which must happen in order to enter into the Kingdom. The son is an allegory for the self each of us find so valuble. And the nature of that self with its great attachment to not only our possessions but our family. Abraham is attached to his son, yet the way of the Kingdom is NO attachment, to anything. So this mythical story was a test to see if abraham was free of attachement, since attachment is the very nature of the Self that must die in order to enter the Kingdom.

                The pirate once said here that he did not want to die unto his self. Because he was attached to the memories of conquering a bully in his youth, and the thoughts of that still makes him feel good. He is attached to that. But to enter into the kingdom, the death of the self causes all of our attachments to be done away with, and in that there is complete freedom. No attachments, no fear, no greed, no hate. Christ tried to teach this as did the Buddha. But no one really follows the teachings of christ. We just can't bear to not be ruled by the ego, the self. There is so much pleasure in living in the Self. So we turned christ into a sacrificial animal so we could carry on with our natural ways. We don't have to die unto our SELVES, we created a story in which he died for us. BUT, that is NOT what He taught. We just make shit up is all. For our own convenience.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: Acts of Faith

                  Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                  I God wants someone dead, it will happen. If God appears before you and tells you to kill someone, you will do it. If you don't believe that, you have no concept of God.
                  If god appears before you, telling you to kill, that sumbitch ain't god..

                  Concept of God? Are you serious. The physical brain is not capable of having a true concept of God. Thought cannot touch IT. SO any concept is utterly false, a creation. Because when you start believing in a concept, a creation of thought, folks tend to start killing others in the name of that concept, which is the history of christianity.

                  It is sacriledge to have any concept of the Creator. The ancient jews understood this so well that they did not even say His Name. Graven images can be images of wood, stone, metal, or even the more deceptive images we create out of thought. Before the graven image made in stone was stone, it was a picture in the mind, a thought. That thought was made into a 3D image. There is absolutely no difference between a concept of god and a graven image of him. One preceded the other, so they are both WRONG.

                  Concepts my ass! How egocentic is that? That the human brain could actually have a concept that was even close to what God really is. Any such concept is an insult to the Creator. And concepts tend to take the lives of others. And they separate this religion from that religion and they have historically killed one another over such silliness.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: Acts of Faith

                    Are we slaves to the will of God or have we been taught exercising free will is the best way to get into heaven?
                    Choosing to recognize the word of godd and not be enslaved by it is the blessing not living as a sheep or dog on a chain.
                    God tells me to kill and I'm free to decide the only thing that will die is my relationship with God. My immortal soul is my immortal soul and not the plaything of a capricious patrician bronze age god.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: Acts of Faith

                      Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                      ahoy all,

                      if God pointed to a pound 'o kind bud, and commanded unto me that i should smoke it, i'd so so.

                      aye.

                      - MeadHallPirate
                      Looks to me like He put cannabis here for a reason, and of course we use it for rope, fabrics and it even helps a bit with its natural buzz. All plants are here for our use, our pleasure. God made em. God wouldn't waste good THC. He ain't a wasteful chap.

                      Just remember, he only told us not to eat of one plant, that tree of knowledge in Eden. He put the rest of the plant life here for us to use at our own descretion. I kinda like the guy for giving us all of these plants that we eat, make life saving medicine from and so on. There apparently is only one evil weed left, going by that old saw of...


                      Tobacco is an evil weed
                      Because the devil sows the seed
                      It stains your fingers, burns you clothes
                      And make a smoke stack outta your nose.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Re: Acts of Faith

                        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                        I God wants someone dead, it will happen. If God appears before you and tells you to kill someone, you will do it. If you don't believe that, you have no concept of God.
                        From this post alone, neither do you...

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Re: Acts of Faith

                          Originally posted by Steerpike View Post
                          If you believed your God told you (by any means of revelation you choose) to kill someone, would you do it?
                          I think this whole thread is a huge steaming pile of baiting... designed to both insult people of faith and giving them a 'lose lose' choice... all for your eventual ridicule.

                          Case in point...

                          Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                          From this post alone, neither do you...

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #14
                            Re: Acts of Faith

                            Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                            I think this whole thread is a huge steaming pile of baiting... designed to both insult people of faith and giving them a 'lose lose' choice... all for your eventual ridicule.

                            Case in point...
                            Seriously though, look at the wording of OldmanDan's post I was responding to.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #15
                              Re: Acts of Faith

                              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                              From this post alone, neither do you...
                              I am just saying that if God appears before you, you will know who he is and you will do as you are told.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?

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