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Right and Wrong

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  • #46
    Re: Right and Wrong

    Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
    Without wasting 12 minutes watching this video that I'll never get back, copying and pasting the likes of Deepak Chopra does nothing to support the fallacy of the ego is inherently wrong to this egoist.

    This thread is about knowing right from wrong. This thread is not about acting against ones self interest, which is what egoism is. Before one knows or decides or judges what is in his best interest, he must first know himself. This does not mean THE EXACT SAME THING as destroying the self, the ego. It means some things are individualistic. This also is not what we are talking about in this thread. We are talking about universals, e.g., murder, stealing, etc.

    Whether one would be happier playing hockey or watching football or have nothing to do with sports involves the individual ego but is not a universal right or wrong.
    Says the egotist who couldn't watch the video? The merest suggestion of the egos involvement in right and wrong seems to set up a fiery rant from you? How does one know right from wrong ... unless one self examines, not accepting what mommy and daddy, the church, and government has programmed them to believe? Instead of telling me what the thread is about ... go back to the OP and show me we are talking about universals ... we are not. Its about learned or innate morality. Universals arise from the ego.
    Last edited by michael h; 12-02-2012, 07:05 PM.

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    • #47
      Re: Right and Wrong

      Originally posted by michael h View Post
      How does one know right from wrong ... unless one self examines
      Self examines? Hence the importance of the ego.

      Originally posted by michael h View Post
      Universals arise from the ego.
      This is like saying sounds arise from the ears.

      (Confounding the object from the subject)

      Originally posted by michael h View Post
      go back to the OP and show me we are talking about universals ... we are not.
      Yes, we are talking about universals even if the OP did not use that word. The OP asked about right and wrong, universally speaking; not right "for you" but wrong "for me" BS.

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      • #48
        Re: Right and Wrong

        Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
        Self examines? Hence the importance of the ego.



        This is like saying sounds arise from the ears.

        (Confounding the object from the subject)



        Yes, we are talking about universals even if the OP did not use that word. The OP asked about right and wrong, universally speaking; not right "for you" but wrong "for me" BS.
        Keep trying, read it a few times ... Dan ... spoke for innate senses of right and wrong ... "Indoctrinated into situational ethics and moral relativity." I agree.

        A little defense mechanism popping up to defend narcissistic satisfaction to squelch the need for "conscience"? Surely conscience has no place in the world of right and wrong? I guess the best defense is a good offense.
        Last edited by michael h; 12-02-2012, 10:09 PM.

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        • #49
          Re: Right and Wrong

          Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
          No it wouldn't. Children do not like to be yelled at, hurt or have their stuff taken. It is just that they need to learn everything they see is not necessarily theirs.
          Sure it would.

          And while you are certainly correct about the things that children do not like, a young child who doesn't like when something happens to them does not automatically reach the moral conclusion that they shouldn't do it to others.

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          • #50
            Re: Right and Wrong

            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
            We have a thread going now on piracy, we have on on abortion drugs, and others on what I consider moral issues. I believe that people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong and that they are sometimes taught otherwise. Indoctrinated into situational ethics and moral relativity. Does anyone else see it that way or do you believe that right and wrong are learned beliefs?
            I'm not so sure.

            My thinking first goes to a child ... any child/all children ... is born selfish. They know hunger, they know (their own) need, they know their own want/desire. Irrespective of anyone else's need or want, they demand to be satisfied. That, at least, does have to be trained out of them (or, at least, so one must hope ... some folks I know missed that part). So, by the time they become morally accountable (typically somewhere in their early teen years), they have to know right from wrong or, in all fairness, we could not hold them accountable for anything.

            Now, that having been said, however, I DO believe that somewhere around their age of "sentience" (or accountability, if you prefer) everyone from the whitest guy in Kansas to the blackest Somali comes into a knowledge of God. Probably NOT an intimate or secure knowledge, but some level of understanding that He exists and that knowledge holds some level of appeal to the individual. The individual is still responsible for what they do with that (either perfect it for the rest of their lives, discard it out-of-hand, or something else along that continuum), but I read in Romans 1 that God built a knowledge of Himself into each of us so no one has any excuse that they "didn't know."

            Is this the "knowledge of good and evil" spoken of? I only know that answer for myself.

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            • #51
              Re: Right and Wrong

              Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
              A priori does not exist.

              What do you mean?

              Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
              To start we are Tabula Rasa.

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              • #52
                Re: Right and Wrong

                Originally posted by michael h View Post
                Keep trying, read it a few times ... Dan ... spoke for innate senses of right and wrong ... "Indoctrinated into situational ethics and moral relativity." I agree.
                One cannot agree with a question. In speaking of innate senses of right and wrong, it is clear Dan is referring to universals. By contrast, he spoke about indoctrination against universals, such as situational ethics and moral relativity. You ought to keep trying and read it a few times.

                Do you suppose indoctrination is for what people innately know?

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                • #53
                  Re: Right and Wrong

                  Originally posted by Steerpike View Post
                  What do you mean?
                  What part of "A priori does not exist" is confusing you? Did you research Tabula Rasa or think it just easier to ask what I meant by "A priori does not exist?"

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                  • #54
                    Re: Right and Wrong

                    Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                    What part of "A priori does not exist" is confusing you? Did you research Tabula Rasa or think it just easier to ask what I meant by "A priori does not exist?"
                    I am asking you what you mean in the context. Or do you deny the existence of a priori knowledge?

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                    • #55
                      Re: Right and Wrong

                      Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                      One cannot agree with a question. In speaking of innate senses of right and wrong, it is clear Dan is referring to universals. By contrast, he spoke about indoctrination against universals, such as situational ethics and moral relativity. You ought to keep trying and read it a few times.

                      Do you suppose indoctrination is for what people innately know?
                      Read it again ... your really struggling to interpret. The following quote from Dan is not a question ... its a statement of his position, hence one can agree with his position.. Once you get past the difference between a question and a statement ... referring to universals is not the subject ... morality concerns universals and where morality arises from is the topic.

                      I believe that people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong and that they are sometimes taught otherwise. Indoctrinated into situational ethics and moral relativity.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Right and Wrong

                        Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                        No it wouldn't. Children do not like to be yelled at, hurt or have their stuff taken. It is just that they need to learn everything they see is not necessarily theirs.
                        Knowing what they like and don't like is a far cry from knowing what is right and wrong. Children may not like to have their stuff taken but they'll take someone else's stuff without hesitation. Empathy is a learned trait.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Right and Wrong

                          Originally posted by michael h View Post
                          Where theres wrong there is the ego.



                          I liked the credits on the movie "revolver" its inside this video.

                          Comments from:
                          Leonard Jacobsen
                          Peter Russel
                          Yoav Dattilo
                          Steven C. Hayes
                          Peter Fonagy
                          Andrew Samuels
                          David Hawkins
                          Deepak Chopra
                          Obadiah S. Harris
                          Ramtha


                          The greatest enemy of Humankind on Vimeo
                          Unlike Mr. Locke, I watched the video. I had no idea that others have seen what my brain has seen and that guy has seen IT.

                          This sir is genuine, real religion, as it was meant to be.To surrender the ego is to surrender unto what the christians call God, or the Holy Spirit, which is not different from God as they are one. I don't name IT, there is no need to, and its beyond words anyway, and anything that you call it is false as soon as the mouth utters the word.

                          But I can tell you this. If you can see what the ego really is, and move beyond it, you have no need for a moral code. You are the moral code. Yet we must teach morality to our kids, because being driven by something we do not even understand, the ego, it is not the nature of the ego to be moral, unless it brings gratification to the ego. So we must teach morality to take up the slack until the REALIZATION occurs in those who are serious about existence and religion. Not organized religion, but the religion that comes when the ego is completely and totally understood. And you can only understand it by observation which brings its own order and intelligence, insight. In the understanding of what the ego really is something happens in the brain, and one is never the same again, one can never go back to the old consciousness in which you had to have the sense of right and wrong constantly taught to you. This is genuine religion, and this is what christ actually taught before the egos of man corrupted his teachings as they continued in ego gratification.

                          When the ego no longer rules the organism, something else rules it. Some call that something else God. I refuse to name it, or to think about it. I just allow it, when it wants, to have its way. And I am constantly watching, until I become aware I stopped watching. Then I watch again. When I am not watching is when the mischief can arise if not for the watching coming in, on its own, without me calling for it. If there is a temptation, the watching just starts naturally, as if the tempation calls in the watching. And when the watching is taking place, I do not break moral codes, killing, stealing, lying, raping, envy, greed and so on. If one is totally aware, there is no place for evil to leech onto. Evil may come, but it leaves as fast as it came. I have no house for evil to dwell in. He always runs into a sliding board, slick, and he slides out of consciousness. I do not fight it, I do not welcome it, I just observe it, and let it go. The "I" that lets it go is not the ego. It is the consciousness that exists independent of the ego, this image we have all created which is based upon memory. This isn't theoretical. It is there to observe, it is a commonality that all humans share in. If one experience this, if one can see it inwardly, which you can, there is no theory involved here at all. It is reality, and as real as the screen I am gazing into as I type this.

                          But some folks are happy with their egoism. It is a gratifying thing. Yet they pay a price for it, and humanity pays a price for it. And the price is death. The price is great suffering, both physical and psychological. The ego dies. The consciousness that exists independent of the ego is eternal. If one dies unto the ego while still alive, there is no death. This is genuine religion, the kind that ends suffering, as it is supposed to do. But hell, Locke and others can suffer all they want. And when their body dies, the ego dies and that's the end of it. There is great beauty in the death of the ego, either while alive, or at the death of the body.

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