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Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

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  • #61
    Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
    Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes - The Washington Post

    Democrats are a one trick pony. Raising taxes is the only thing they know and their answer to every problem. More taxes, bigger government, more control over the citizenry. The problem is, no matter how much of our hard earned money we send them, they will spend all of it and then some.
    This could just as easily have been labeled "Republicans threaten to go over 'fiscal cliff' if Dems refuse to cut taxes on the wealthy". Lowering taxes seems to be Republican answer to everything. They don't propose any meaningful cuts. They just go around snipping at small programs that can make no real impact. For example, they won't go after the defense budget where there are tens of billions that can be cut without doing anything to our ability to defend ourselves against any attack on US interests by anyone.

    Mainly, we have to have people on both sides who can recognize that reasonable people can disagree. I've been reading various threads where conservatives are wanting to go back to the halcyon days of their youth. Thing is, people were not all like-minded then but that didnt mean that it was necessary to demonize the opponent and Congress compromised and we all made progress. I dont see why we think that being intransigent is any way to get things done. I dont want people on either side of the isle to be unwilling to reach compromise. To be honest, I dont see that Republican voters are rewarding candidates who want to work with Democrats to reach compromise. They just want their way damn-it. This is causing the Republican party to become extremist and is creating a negative reaction from the Democrats.

    Republicans often quote Goldwater who said that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. I used to be a Republican and thought that was a really great saying. Now, I recognize that a) Goldwater wasnt close to being as much of an extremist as the Tea Party Republicans, and b) fundamentally, Goldwater was wrong. While it sounds noble, the sentiment is just plain wrong. Extremism is what causes people to cross the line and, instead of pursuing liberty, they end up trying to impose their notion of liberty on others.

    ?


    • #62
      Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

      Direct quote from Mitch McConnell on raising the debt ceiling. The debate in which caused our credit rating to go down:


      "I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting,” he said. “Most of us didn’t think that. What we did learn is this — it’s a hostage that’s worth ransoming. And it focuses the Congress on something that must be done.”


      The difference here is that for most people if all the tax cuts expire most won't feel it. Even then, the democrats can blame the republicans for not playing ball. In the debt ceiling debacle, it caused harm to our economy. Our downgrade is squarely the fault of house republicans especially the tea party who were content to let us default on our obligations.

      Here use this tool to find out exactly how much YOUR taxes will go up if all the tax cuts expire:

      Tax Foundation's Tax Policy Calculator

      In the end, it would amount to paying about 2% more. For me (based on my last job before it got sent to Turkey) since I am single with no kids, I would be looking at about $1200 increase before deductions but I would get most of that back in my refund.
      Last edited by TomBlaze; 08-27-2012, 02:19 AM.

      ?


      • #63
        Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

        Originally posted by Danny View Post
        Dems have the upper hand here because what they want, everyone agrees on: extending tax cuts for middle class families. The GOP want to continue deficit exploding tax cuts for millionaires and not everyone agrees on that. So the GOP is willing to go off the fiscal cliff in order to prevent the democrats from being fiscally responsible. In eyes of the public the GOP will be loosing this battle I can guarantee that.
        Such blind partisanship you are showing... which is typical of your posts.

        Not everyone agrees on extending the Bush tax cuts for everyone if it means continued additions of debt at present levels. That is a false statement, perhaps only accurate among the halls of Washington where no one has the balls to say fiscal responsibility really means spending within tax revenue levels. It really means addressing debt, our massive military spending, our massive entitlement spending, special interest spending, etc. Our path is nothing short of total fiscal irresponsibility, that is fact. And your Democrats as well as Republicans both play a role as to why we spend a $Trillion more per year than we take in from tax revenues. You cannot blame all of that on recession effected tax revenue numbers, nor can you blame the recession itself all on Republicans either. That is no matter how well you are schooled in Democratic talking points of claim all success, blame all failure. It is utter partisan nonsense, which is true of most of your posts lately.

        At the same time, it is totally ignorant of you to suggest the democrats are being fiscally responsible or even want to be fiscally responsible. Reid's Senate has not passed a budget since April 2009? Something like that. Which by the way is a record. We have already jumped off the 'fiscal cliff' with Democrats doing plenty to ensure it happens, and all for political reasons at the expense of our fiscal position. Obama nor Reid are interested in compromise as even Obama's own budget proposal landed with a big 'thud' on the Senate floor. At least the House plan got a few votes here and there as misguided as it was. How did Obama's do? I would ask about Reid's budget proposal but he does not even have one.

        I may call most Republicans fiscally irresponsible as well but spare us the bullshit on Obama, Reid, and Democrats wanting to be fiscally responsible. Few will buy into that, and the facts will NEVER support it...

        ?


        • #64
          Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

          Originally posted by TomBlaze View Post
          Direct quote from Mitch McConnell on raising the debt ceiling. The debate in which caused our credit rating to go down:


          "I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting,” he said. “Most of us didn’t think that. What we did learn is this — it’s a hostage that’s worth ransoming. And it focuses the Congress on something that must be done.”


          The difference here is that for most people if all the tax cuts expire most won't feel it. Even then, the democrats can blame the republicans for not playing ball. In the debt ceiling debacle, it caused harm to our economy. Our downgrade is squarely the fault of house republicans especially the tea party who were content to let us default on our obligations.

          Here use this tool to find out exactly how much YOUR taxes will go up if all the tax cuts expire:

          Tax Foundation's Tax Policy Calculator

          In the end, it would amount to paying about 2% more. For me (based on my last job before it got sent to Turkey) since I am single with no kids, I would be looking at about $1200 increase before deductions but I would get most of that back in my refund.
          Most people would notice if their take home pay decreased by 150 a month.

          ?


          • #65
            Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

            Originally posted by goober View Post
            Because the CBO projections showed that if those tax rates were retained the deficit would continue to grow, those tax rates were unsustainable when they were passed, that's why they were temporary.
            Sunsetting the bill, made the deficit appear to shrink at the end of the period when the tax rates returned to 2000 levels.
            You folks on the left baffle me. On on hand you say we need increased spending to stimulate the economy but on the other hand you want to take money that people would spend away from them. You must somehow believe that the government is better at spending your money than you are.

            ?


            • #66
              Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

              Originally posted by TomBlaze View Post
              Direct quote from Mitch McConnell on raising the debt ceiling. The debate in which caused our credit rating to go down:


              "I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting, he said. Most of us didnt think that. What we did learn is this its a hostage thats worth ransoming. And it focuses the Congress on something that must be done.


              The difference here is that for most people if all the tax cuts expire most won't feel it. Even then, the democrats can blame the republicans for not playing ball. In the debt ceiling debacle, it caused harm to our economy. Our downgrade is squarely the fault of house republicans especially the tea party who were content to let us default on our obligations.

              Here use this tool to find out exactly how much YOUR taxes will go up if all the tax cuts expire:

              Tax Foundation's Tax Policy Calculator

              In the end, it would amount to paying about 2% more. For me (based on my last job before it got sent to Turkey) since I am single with no kids, I would be looking at about $1200 increase before deductions but I would get most of that back in my refund.
              Since we're doing debt limit quotes:

              "Mr. OBAMA. Mr. President, I rise today to talk about Americas debt
              problem.
              The fact that we are here today to debate raising Americas debt limit is a
              sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government cant pay its
              own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance
              from foreign countries to finance our Governments reckless fiscal policies."
              - Barack Obama, 2006 (Congressional Record, p S2237)

              As it turns out, then-Senator Obama showed remarkable foresight in predicting his own leadership failure a few years later.....

              ?


              • #67
                Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                Most people would notice if their take home pay decreased by 150 a month.
                I am single with no kids so I always pay a higher rate than most people. A married couple 2 kids (1 in college) with a combined income of 90k will pay less taxes than me. And that figure for me is gross increase before deductions. My accountant would pretty much negate most of it. They would pay 15-17% whereas, at 70k what I was making at my old job I would be paying 25-27%.
                Last edited by TomBlaze; 08-27-2012, 11:15 AM.

                ?


                • #68
                  Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                  Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
                  Since we're doing debt limit quotes:

                  "Mr. OBAMA. Mr. President, I rise today to talk about America’s debt
                  problem.
                  The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a
                  sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its
                  own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance
                  from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies."
                  - Barack Obama, 2006 (Congressional Record, p S2237)

                  As it turns out, then-Senator Obama showed remarkable foresight in predicting his own leadership failure a few years later.....
                  Fair enough but he didn't threaten to take the economy hostage resulting in a downgrade of our credit rating. He also knew that whether or not you like the idea of our debt increasing, we still need to meet our obligations. Default should never be an option. Bush had a surplus in the budget when he started so I cannot blame Obama for being against increasing our debt. He was right that it was a failure in leadership because Bush put us into debt with China.

                  Obama inherited this mess. If anyone thought it was ever going to be fixed in 4 years or even 8 years they are delusional. We can debate how he has handled it since then and granted he could have made better choices in his first two years but after those first two years, he has been dealing with the spoiled, bratty children we call congresspeople who cannot seem to agree on anything and who keep pointing the finger at one another because all they care about is getting re-elected. It's all fist-pumping and chest-thumping right now.

                  ?


                  • #69
                    Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                    Originally posted by TomBlaze View Post
                    Fair enough but he didn't threaten to take the economy hostage resulting in a downgrade of our credit rating. He also knew that whether or not you like the idea of our debt increasing, we still need to meet our obligations. Default should never be an option. Bush had a surplus in the budget when he started so I cannot blame Obama for being against increasing our debt. He was right that it was a failure in leadership because Bush put us into debt with China.

                    Obama inherited this mess. If anyone thought it was ever going to be fixed in 4 years or even 8 years they are delusional. We can debate how he has handled it since then and granted he could have made better choices in his first two years but after those first two years, he has been dealing with the spoiled, bratty children we call congresspeople who cannot seem to agree on anything and who keep pointing the finger at one another because all they care about is getting re-elected. It's all fist-pumping and chest-thumping right now.
                    If you read the report on the reasons for downgrading our credit, massive debt was the main reason.

                    ?


                    • #70
                      Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                      If you read the report on the reasons for downgrading our credit, massive debt was the main reason.
                      Do you mean this report: S&P - US debt rating?
                      The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics.
                      More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.
                      Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government's debt dynamics any time soon.
                      My reasoning is the main reason for the downgrade should appear in the overview. I suppose one could argue that the first point quoted here is about massive debt, but I may take the wild guess that the reason could be slightly different.

                      ?


                      • #71
                        Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                        Originally posted by Vuld Edone View Post
                        Do you mean this report: S&P - US debt rating?
                        My reasoning is the main reason for the downgrade should appear in the overview. I suppose one could argue that the first point quoted here is about massive debt, but I may take the wild guess that the reason could be slightly different.
                        I might look at the title

                        United States of America Long-Term
                        Rating Lowered To 'AA+' On
                        Political Risks And Rising Debt
                        Burden
                        ; Outlook Negative
                        Of course the next statement in the overview also says:

                        The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the
                        long-term rating to 'AA'
                        within the next two years if we see that less
                        reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new
                        fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government
                        debt trajectory
                        than we currently assume in our base case.
                        And in the meat of the report:

                        We also believe that the fiscal
                        consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this week
                        falls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize the
                        general government debt burden by the middle of the decade.
                        Our lowering of the rating was prompted by our view on the rising public
                        debt burden

                        ?


                        • #72
                          Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                          I might look at the title



                          Of course the next statement in the overview also says:



                          And in the meat of the report:
                          Funny how people only seem to highlight what is favors their argument.

                          United States of America Long-Term
                          Rating Lowered To 'AA+' On
                          Political Risks
                          And Rising Debt
                          Burden; Outlook Negative
                          See what I did there? If it weren't for the fact that the GOP were advertising on national TV that we should default on our obligations we would not have been downgraded. Political Risk being the operative word. Yes the debt burden alone was a THREAT for a downgrade but the threat of default is what pushed it over the edge. The global markets started sliding when the rhetoric was flying out there about flirting with default. Bachmann and her wonderful theory that we could still pay the interest if we did raise the debt ceiling did not help either. Imagine our country taking on it's own form of an ARM. Interest only for 4 years then quadruple payments in the fifth year. LOL. Truth is we did not have the revenue to even cover that.
                          Last edited by TomBlaze; 08-27-2012, 03:35 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                            Originally posted by TomBlaze View Post
                            Funny how people only seem to highlight what is favors their argument.



                            See what I did there? If it weren't for the fact that the GOP were advertising on national TV that we should default on our obligations we would not have been downgraded. Political Risk being the operative word. Yes the debt burden alone was a THREAT for a downgrade but the threat of default is what pushed it over the edge. The global markets started sliding when the rhetoric was flying out there about flirting with default. Bachmann and her wonderful theory that we could still pay the interest if we did raise the debt ceiling did not help either. Imagine our country taking on it's own form of an ARM. Interest only for 4 years then quadruple payments in the fifth year. LOL. Truth is we did not have the revenue to even cover that.
                            You ignored the final quote:

                            Our lowering of the rating was prompted by our view on the rising public
                            debt burden

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                            • #74
                              Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                              You ignored the final quote:
                              He answered it:
                              "Our lowering of the rating was prompted by our view on the rising public debt burden and our perception of greater policymaking uncertainty, consistent with our criteria (see "Sovereign Government Rating Methodology and Assumptions," June 30, 2011, especially Paragraphs 36-41)."

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                              • #75
                                Re: Democrats threaten to go over fiscal cliff if GOP fails to raise taxes

                                The tax man cometh unless Congress acts fast

                                95f1034c424552927a3b90e801856379.jpg

                                The tax man cometh unless Congress acts fast - St. Louis Nonpartisan | Examiner.com

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