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Dumb Things Liberals Say

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  • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

    So it's ok to equate homosexuality with murder as long as you do it in the name of God?

    What utter bollocks.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

      Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
      So it's ok to equate homosexuality with murder as long as you do it in the name of God?

      What utter bollocks.
      Both are sins in the eyes of God. You may not see them the same but you are not God.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

        Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
        Oh, crap, not again.

        Nobody is forcing you to accept anything. You are still free to be as bigoted as you please towards gays. You are free to teach your children that gays are terrible, immoral people who are going to burn in Hell for all eternity.

        What you do not recognize is that there are many people who view what you believe towards gays as being immoral and wrong as evidenced by your public behavior and speech.

        You suffer absolutely no injury from the fact that two other people happen to be the same gender and happen to love one another. All the "damage" there is in your mind.
        Originally posted by Good1 View Post
        In your self-righteous opinion, I suffer absolutely no injury, Matt.

        Even if you knew me, and you don't, you would not have the authority to make such a pronouncement.

        Further, I resent your insinuation about what I teach my children. Since you have not taken a MOMENT to understand or to even seek out what I believe about homosexuals, your hatred of me because of what you have convinced yourself is my position is reprehensible and unfounded.
        That is not what Matt is getting at. It is not about an accusation (as I read it,) it is about a notion that government is forcing you to change your opinion on gays which is not the case. The religious objection to gays and lesbians is not changing, as far as I know there is no proposal that suggests religion has to change their take on gays and lesbians. The bigger problem here is the presentation of what is and is not immoral, and what the source of that really is. Man's word or God's word, which is a whole new issue to contend with.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
          What I believe or don't believe, like or don't like is not the issue. God says that homosexual behavior is an abomination in his eyes. It is no worse than adultery, murder, theft, or any other sin. What I don't want is for our society to be told that homosexual behavior is not a sin and is acceptable in the eyes of God. I don't want our schools teaching that homosexual behavior is OK.
          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
          Both are sins in the eyes of God. You may not see them the same but you are not God.
          That is you opinion, and a take bases upon a religion you are free to follow. But there is nothing in the constitution that suggests everyone must follow.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
            Both are sins in the eyes of God. You may not see them the same but you are not God.
            Kindly point out where I claimed to be God as being an Atheist I'd presumably have to then deny my own existence and I'm fairly confident I do actually exist.
            You can try and hide behind religion but that doesn't stop you being massively anti gay.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

              Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
              Kindly point out where I claimed to be God as being an Atheist I'd presumably have to then deny my own existence and I'm fairly confident I do actually exist.
              You can try and hide behind religion but that doesn't stop you being massively anti gay.
              I'm not hiding behind anything. I am openly opposed to gay behavior and I am opposed to our government endorsing is in any way. Whether that be by teaching in public schools that it is normal or by offering government benefits to participants through the approval of marriage.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                That is you opinion, and a take bases upon a religion you are free to follow. But there is nothing in the constitution that suggests everyone must follow.
                There is nothing in the Constitution that says I must follow laws against murder either. People don't refrain from doing something because there is a law against it. They refrain from doing something because of their moral values. Speed limit signs don't stop anyone from speeding, murder laws don't stop people from killing one another.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                  6 weeks after the Obamacare Exchanges open for business:

                  "...the roll out has been rough so far and I think, uh, everybody understands, uh, that I'm not happy about the fact that the roll out has been, uh, y'know, wrought with a whole range of problems I've been deeply concerned about." -Barack Obama, 11/14/2013


                  Could'ja work "roll out" into that sentence a couple more times, there, bud?

                  So you're not happy about problems you've been deeply concerned about, huh?

                  Well .... DUH!

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                    Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                    That is not what Matt is getting at. It is not about an accusation (as I read it,) it is about a notion that government is forcing you to change your opinion on gays which is not the case. The religious objection to gays and lesbians is not changing, as far as I know there is no proposal that suggests religion has to change their take on gays and lesbians. The bigger problem here is the presentation of what is and is not immoral, and what the source of that really is. Man's word or God's word, which is a whole new issue to contend with.
                    Exactly!

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                      There is nothing in the Constitution that says I must follow laws against murder either. People don't refrain from doing something because there is a law against it. They refrain from doing something because of their moral values. Speed limit signs don't stop anyone from speeding, murder laws don't stop people from killing one another.
                      Not quite what I was getting at, but I understand your point. The issue for me is you have the belief that sin has no levels, thus homosexual acts are not all that removed from murder. "Both are sins in the eyes of God." Your moral values will not convince gays to no longer be gay, that is just another offering that is not quite true. Else, history would be filled with different lessons.

                      It compounds an earlier mentioned problem. What is sin as defined by men and what God, or Jesus, actually said. The compound is that sin is equal, which again belief over rational thought.

                      The solution becomes obvious. Seperate religion from government. If we removed government from not just the marriage business but also the business of protected classes then most of these issues would go away. But the truth is religion turns to government just as much as those that feel they need protections on a government level. History is also on my side here. But the effect could be one would be free to follow a religion and be married in the eyes of that religion. Unions between consenting adults would have no additional recognition of "marriage" so it would no longer matter what the sex was of those in the union.

                      The church could still preach what they think is their moral superiority, but the government would be out of the business of backing that up. To go a step further, many laws could be looked at from a position of rational thought instead of some other factor.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                        Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                        That is not what Matt is getting at. It is not about an accusation (as I read it,) it is about a notion that government is forcing you to change your opinion on gays which is not the case. The religious objection to gays and lesbians is not changing, as far as I know there is no proposal that suggests religion has to change their take on gays and lesbians. The bigger problem here is the presentation of what is and is not immoral, and what the source of that really is. Man's word or God's word, which is a whole new issue to contend with.
                        See, but I know Matt ... as so many others before him ... was triggering the auto-hate at my position because 1) He knows I am religious and 2) ALL religious people feel the same way about homosexuality. My objection to his statement was aimed at his self-righteous chest-beating as he told me what I teach my children and stuffed me into his little pre-formed box (into which all religioius people fit, according to him).

                        Further, you might also notice, I am very seldom (and not at all in this argument) introduced anything having to do with religion. I know with surety someone who is NOT religious will do that for me and, then, hold ME responsible for having done so. It is very clear I'm not allowed my opinion about homosexual behavior (as evidenced by those who will come out of the woodwork to harass me with unfounded accusations the moment I dare open my mouth (or keyboard) to present it. This disavowal of my opinion is a direct result of those who don't want to hear my opinion working to force [me] to change my opinion, whether I like it or not.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                          Originally posted by Good1 View Post
                          See, but I know Matt ... as so many others before him ... was triggering the auto-hate at my position because 1) He knows I am religious and 2) ALL religious people feel the same way about homosexuality. My objection to his statement was aimed at his self-righteous chest-beating as he told me what I teach my children and stuffed me into his little pre-formed box (into which all religioius people fit, according to him).

                          Further, you might also notice, I am very seldom (and not at all in this argument) introduced anything having to do with religion. I know with surety someone who is NOT religious will do that for me and, then, hold ME responsible for having done so. It is very clear I'm not allowed my opinion about homosexual behavior (as evidenced by those who will come out of the woodwork to harass me with unfounded accusations the moment I dare open my mouth (or keyboard) to present it. This disavowal of my opinion is a direct result of those who don't want to hear my opinion working to force [me] to change my opinion, whether I like it or not.
                          I follow, but I don't really know your history with Matt. That is for him to respond to, we agree. But I will offer that Matt and I see eye to eye on many things, so I thought I'd try to create a little peace with an olive branch of sorts while my spirits are high.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                            Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                            Not quite what I was getting at, but I understand your point. The issue for me is you have the belief that sin has no levels, thus homosexual acts are not all that removed from murder. "Both are sins in the eyes of God." Your moral values will not convince gays to no longer be gay, that is just another offering that is not quite true. Else, history would be filled with different lessons.
                            No, my moral values will not convince gays to no longer be gay. They will also not convince murderers not to murder, they will not even convince speeders not to speed.

                            It compounds an earlier mentioned problem. What is sin as defined by men and what God, or Jesus, actually said. The compound is that sin is equal, which again belief over rational thought.
                            We all know what sin is.

                            [Rom 1:17 NASB] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
                            [Rom 1:18 NASB] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
                            [Rom 1:19 NASB] because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
                            [Rom 1:20 NASB] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
                            [Rom 1:21 NASB] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
                            [Rom 1:22 NASB] Professing to be wise, they became fools,
                            [Rom 1:23 NASB] and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
                            [Rom 1:24 NASB] Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
                            [Rom 1:25 NASB] For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
                            [Rom 1:26 NASB] For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
                            [Rom 1:27 NASB] and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
                            [Rom 1:28 NASB] And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
                            [Rom 1:29 NASB] being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
                            [Rom 1:30 NASB] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
                            [Rom 1:31 NASB] without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
                            [Rom 1:32 NASB] and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


                            The solution becomes obvious. Seperate religion from government. If we removed government from not just the marriage business but also the business of protected classes then most of these issues would go away. But the truth is religion turns to government just as much as those that feel they need protections on a government level. History is also on my side here. But the effect could be one would be free to follow a religion and be married in the eyes of that religion. Unions between consenting adults would have no additional recognition of "marriage" so it would no longer matter what the sex was of those in the union.

                            The church could still preach what they think is their moral superiority, but the government would be out of the business of backing that up. To go a step further, many laws could be looked at from a position of rational thought instead of some other factor.
                            Separating beliefs from society is a very difficult task. I agree that government should have no part in marriage, it is a religious rite that government coopted to bestow rights on people. That still does not solve the problem of the government saying that homosexual behavior is acceptable when my religion says it isn't. Schools are teaching that it is acceptable. That is as wrong as them teaching that it is unacceptable.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                              I follow, but I don't really know your history with Matt. That is for him to respond to, we agree. But I will offer that Matt and I see eye to eye on many things, so I thought I'd try to create a little peace with an olive branch of sorts while my spirits are high.
                              AH ... and thank you for that, but perhaps I should explain further?

                              This 2D medium is loathesome when it comes to using body language and facial expressions to convey meaning. I was not (and am not) angry with Matt, per se. In fact, I really do enjoy his perspective on many topics, even the ones on which we disagree.

                              My ire was more kindled at the words he used and the accusations/inferences he made (as I have been in the past with others who have made the same kinds of inferences/accusations). So I apologize to those I offended with my written "tone" and particularly to Matt if he was taken aback at my invective. I intended no offense, but did intend to take issue with his statements.

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                              • Re: Dumb Things Liberals Say

                                Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                                Not quite what I was getting at, but I understand your point. The issue for me is you have the belief that sin has no levels, thus homosexual acts are not all that removed from murder. "Both are sins in the eyes of God." Your moral values will not convince gays to no longer be gay, that is just another offering that is not quite true. Else, history would be filled with different lessons.

                                It compounds an earlier mentioned problem. What is sin as defined by men and what God, or Jesus, actually said. The compound is that sin is equal, which again belief over rational thought.

                                The solution becomes obvious. Seperate religion from government. If we removed government from not just the marriage business but also the business of protected classes then most of these issues would go away. But the truth is religion turns to government just as much as those that feel they need protections on a government level. History is also on my side here. But the effect could be one would be free to follow a religion and be married in the eyes of that religion. Unions between consenting adults would have no additional recognition of "marriage" so it would no longer matter what the sex was of those in the union.

                                The church could still preach what they think is their moral superiority, but the government would be out of the business of backing that up. To go a step further, many laws could be looked at from a position of rational thought instead of some other factor.
                                So help me understand here: Are you saying rational thought cannot (or does not) include morality? That doesn't sound right, so maybe you're saying something else(?).

                                In your suggestion that moral values will not convince homosexuals to not be homosexuals, I think you're putting the cart before the horse. IF morality was a consideration in the first place, sin would not be engaged at all. So from my perception, the existence of "sin" is inversely proportional to the imporance of morality in a given society. Looking at it from a purely theological perspective, though, only one sin in an otherwise spotless, blemish-free life is sufficient to send the actor to Hell (which is, at least, absolute separation from God, but could be much more). But from a practical standpoint, no one has ever been able to limit their sin to just one act ... every one of us sin every day but it is only man who puts "greater" or "lesser" values on sin. From God's perspective, ALL sin separates us from Him. He has decided He cannot look on (any) sin; couple that with the fact that no one can live sin-free and you see His Dilemma: HE wants eternal fellowship with us, but we are incapable of getting our lives to the point where we can join Him in that fellowship.

                                [darkness]

                                So something extra ... something divine had to be done: Enter [light] Jesus who is God and who CAN live as a man but without sin. And when He has proven that it can be done and He has lived a blemish-free life, He is the only man in history (both past and future) who has ever been qualified to be the spotless sacrifice: THE ONE being who has a right, by his sinlessness, to fellowship with God (who ... He is) so He dies on the cross to cover the sins of all mankind: The ultimate sacrificial lamb, dies to save the world, once and for all.

                                Now, because of that, God calls us into fellowship that HE KNOWS we can now join, through Jesus Christ.

                                But, sigh ... the choice rests irrevocably with us and, unfortunately, some will NOT choose Jesus (which is, in itself, a choice).

                                <SO ... how'd I get up on this soap box?>

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