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Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

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  • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

    Health care in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Go to the bottom if you want to see the entries for other European health systems.

    And BTW, not classy to treat your assertion that 15 countries are single payer as requiring no evidence but demand a link for my opposite claim.

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    • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

      Originally posted by adaher View Post
      Health care in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Go to the bottom if you want to see the entries for other European health systems.

      And BTW, not classy to treat your assertion that 15 countries are single payer as requiring no evidence but demand a link for my opposite claim.
      HERE is what my study states: The top 15 countries all have strong state funding of single-payer universal health care.

      That statement is true.

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      • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

        That is false. The word "single" doesn't mean what you think it means. If there are multiple payers, it's multi-payer. By your definition, even the US is single-payer.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

          Originally posted by adaher View Post
          That is false. The word "single" doesn't mean what you think it means. If there are multiple payers, it's multi-payer. By your definition, even the US is single-payer.
          We can parse over words, but that most successful health care plans are government financed and private delivery. If a country also offers private insurance for the opulent and you need to call it a name that makes your dogma comforting...go for it man.

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          • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

            86% of Frenchmen have supplemental insurance. And in some countries, people can opt out of the system and pay for their care themselves, either with cash or by buying private insurance. Others have multiple publicly subsidized plans. None of these are examples of single payer. Single payer is something very specific: one payer, covering all health care needs of the populace within budget constraints. Only Britain and Canada follow this model, although there might be a small nation or three that also copies it. Everyone else has multi-payer. The government covers some things, or there are sickness funds, or many citizens opt out entirely. No one gets to opt out of the Canadian or British systems and there is no competition for the Canadian or British systems. In fact, competition is strongly discouraged, almost illegal in those two countries.

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            • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

              Single-payer health care is medical care funded from a single insurance pool, run by the state.[4] Single-payer is form of monopsony: a market in which one buyer faces many sellers. Single-payer is not the same as universal health care (it is possible to have either without the other). A single-payer-universal-health-care plan for an entire population can be financed from a pool to which many parties – employees, employers, and the state – have contributed.

              Single-payer health insurance collects all medical fees, and then pays for all services, through a "single" government (or government-related) source.[5] In wealthy nations, this kind of publicly managed insurance is typically extended to all citizens and legal residents. Examples include the United Kingdom's National Health Service, Australia's Medicare, Canada's Medicare, and Taiwan's National Health Insurance.

              Single-payer health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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              • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                You know, we have talked about this on a couple threads. And the impression I get is that all you want to focus on is the trivial. I provided an interview with a 20 year insurance executive. He lays out how today's private insurance corporations are controlled by Wall Street investors who severely punish any corporation that pays out too much in benefits for fellow Americans who may be facing the prospect of DEATH. They are forced to dump sick people to meet Wall Street demands for profit.

                He lays out how corporate money funds phony front groups with nice sounding names like Health Care America to launch the insurance industry's public relations attack campaign against universal health care and the TRUTH about our corporate run death panels.

                I provided testimony of what goes on at free health care clinics. People line up like cattle to see a doctor. 80% have JOBS and 90% have more than one serious illness.

                As a liberal, I've been called all kind of names like commie and Marxist, yet Stalin was a social Darwinist, just like the majority of conservatives have morphed into. Were the people Stalin killed more dead than the 45,000 fellow Americans who die prematurely every year because of our corporate run death panels?

                Albert Camus said, "It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners". It's time conservatives became thinking people.

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                • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                  Insurance death panels function the same way the NHS does. Except they are better funded so cover more. Hospitals in the US are rushing to install PET scanners and proton therapy at a cost of millions of dollars, because many private insurance plans cover them. No one is rushing to build then in Britain or Canada, because they aren't covered.

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                  • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                    Originally posted by adaher View Post
                    Insurance death panels function the same way the NHS does. Except they are better funded so cover more. Hospitals in the US are rushing to install PET scanners and proton therapy at a cost of millions of dollars, because many private insurance plans cover them. No one is rushing to build then in Britain or Canada, because they aren't covered.
                    REALLY? Are 45,000 British citizens dying prematurely every year because they don't have access to affordable health care? Are 52 million British citizens uninsured? Do British citizens line up like cattle at free health care clinics? Are British citizens forced into bankruptcy because of medical bills?

                    There is an old axiom: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. PET scanners and proton therapy will cost of millions of dollars and WHO will pay for it? Three guesses and the first two don't count. Just MORE money for doctors and hospitals and MORE over-utilization.

                    If you were aboard the Titanic, you'd be futzing with the bilge pump...at the bottom of the North Atlantic.

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                    • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                      Originally posted by Bfgrn View Post
                      REALLY? Are 45,000 British citizens dying prematurely every year because they don't have access to affordable health care? Are 52 million British citizens uninsured? Do British citizens line up like cattle at free health care clinics? Are British citizens forced into bankruptcy because of medical bills?
                      Impossible to say. No one asks the question. What is clear is that Brits do not always get the health care they need when they need it.

                      There is an old axiom: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. PET scanners and proton therapy will cost of millions of dollars and WHO will pay for it? Three guesses and the first two don't count. Just MORE money for doctors and hospitals and MORE over-utilization.
                      Over-utilization is certainly a problem, but underutilization is a problem in Canada and Britain. These things are virtually unavailable in those countries. The multi-payer systems in continental Europe seem to strike the best balance.

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                      • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                        Originally posted by adaher View Post
                        That is false, and mortality rates have little to do with health care. If you look at one stat that has a lot to do with health care, wait times, the multi-payer systems are vastly superior. They also fare better in terms of life expectancy, although like mortality, that has only a little to do with health care.As for your list, I can spot a few in your top 15 that aren't single payer. Austria is multi-payer, Netherlands is multi-payer, Sweden is decentralized, with health care handled at the county level, which is unusual, but guarantees competition between regions. Japan is multi-payer. Italy is multi-payer. France is multi-payer.
                        Why are wait times a more important metric than cost?

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                        • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                          Originally posted by John Drake View Post
                          Why are wait times a more important metric than cost?
                          Wow, that question right there has some serious implications. Would you not agree (depending upon patient condition and diagnosis of course) that wait times are pretty important?

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                          • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                            Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                            Wow, that question right there has some serious implications. Would you not agree (depending upon patient condition and diagnosis of course) that wait times are pretty important?
                            What serious implications? Assuming the condition doesn't worsen over time then wait time has little import compared to cost, which often determines if there is any treatment of the condition at all.

                            This seems a typical conservative argument, the idea that no treatment at all for most people beats having to wait to see a doctor for those rich few who can afford it, and it seems ridiculous to me.

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                            • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                              Originally posted by adaher View Post
                              Impossible to say. No one asks the question. What is clear is that Brits do not always get the health care they need when they need it.



                              Over-utilization is certainly a problem, but underutilization is a problem in Canada and Britain. These things are virtually unavailable in those countries. The multi-payer systems in continental Europe seem to strike the best balance.
                              It's also clear that Yanks do not always get the healthcare they need either. The difference is that the UK uses an independent medical body (NICE) to determine the cost verses effectiveness of treatments rather than a for-profit insurance company.

                              I also want to correct something. The UK has a single, tax funded healthcare system. You will always get care, at (basically) no additional cost, no worries about bankrupcy if you get sick. BUT you can also, for very reasonable fees, both buy private health coverage (e.b. BUPA) which allows you access to additional care, sometimes at private facilities, sometimes using spare NHS bandwidth. And also private medical treatment (e.g. Harley Street) with some of the top specialists in the world. All these systems work in a fairly efficient symbiosis. The UK system may not be perfect, and is a handy whipping boy for those so inclined as you can always find a flaw in any huge undertaking like healthcare, but fundamentally you get excellent first-world treatment and you get to keep your house, and don't have to choose which fingers to reattach because your insurance won't cover it.

                              It also gets glossed over that you get all this for pretty much half the per person cost of the US system.

                              There may well be arguments against a single payer universal system (although IMO none of them are compelling) but if one is going to use the UK to illustrate them, then accuracy is important.

                              Peace

                              Pappy

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                              • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                                Originally posted by John Drake View Post
                                Why are wait times a more important metric than cost?
                                You can't be serious!

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