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Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

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  • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

    Originally posted by Damn Yankee View Post
    SCOTUS has never been wrong?

    Perhaps you can explain how is ObamaCare Constitutional. Is there a section or amendment of the Constitution that I am unaware of?
    Federalist number 84 by Alexander Hamilton, summary: "If we list a set of rights, some fools in the future are going to claim that people are entitled only to those rights enumerated and no other."

    The framers patently had no intent to make a fixed and unchanging set of rules for ever and ever. And it's only in the last few years that anyone other than people who live in bunkers spooning with their shotguns thought otherwise.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

      Originally posted by Cletus View Post
      To me it is a no-brainer. Yes there should be universal health care. Will there be downsides? Yes. Canada and other countries do have longer waiting times but the issue is this. Should people who need non-life saving procedures have to wait longer? To me they should. In our current capitalist system people with the most money go to the front of the line. Perhaps if you are one of those people you see no problem with this but I do.
      In medicine, you often won't know if a procedure would be life-saving or critical until you actually run all the necessary tests. If someone comes in complaining of pain in his knee....okay, it's painful to move, it's swollen, he needs arthroscopic surgery but that's got to wait because there's 300 people ahead of him. Well, damn, we could have made repairs through a scope but we waited too long and the damage got worse so now we're looking at a total knee replacement! No, problem, right? Except now we've basically disabled this person all because some people thought that universal health care was the way to go. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll buy my own insurance.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

        Originally posted by pappypappynut View Post
        Federalist number 84 by Alexander Hamilton, summary: "If we list a set of rights, some fools in the future are going to claim that people are entitled only to those rights enumerated and no other."

        The framers patently had no intent to make a fixed and unchanging set of rules for ever and ever. And it's only in the last few years that anyone other than people who live in bunkers spooning with their shotguns thought otherwise.
        What Hamilton was pointing out was that rights are given to men by their Creator. Government cannot grant rights; they can only take them away.

        You are correct that the Framers envisioned an evolving Constitution, or a completely new one. That's why they wrote into the Constitution the amendment process and constitutional conventions.

        Was ObamaCare passed by an amendment that I haven't seen? Maybe you could enlighten me.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

          Originally posted by pappypappynut View Post
          My point is simply that constitutionally it is not as clear cut as you claim.
          That is an interesting point but in light of the 10th Amendment and the enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8, what is the evidence to support your simple point?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

            Liberals are always saying how complicated the Constitution is, and that we need scholars and judges to interpret it for us. But the Founders wrote it in plain language, for an 18th century population that wasn't nearly as educated as we supposedly are. Pick up a copy and read it, people. It's a very straightforward and easy to understand document.

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            • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

              Originally posted by Rude Boy View Post
              Yes, all we have to do is look at the quality of your posts.

              You get no argument from me there.
              Yep it is a damn shame I actually know what Anarchy means.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                Originally posted by Mrs. M View Post
                In medicine, you often won't know if a procedure would be life-saving or critical until you actually run all the necessary tests. If someone comes in complaining of pain in his knee....okay, it's painful to move, it's swollen, he needs arthroscopic surgery but that's got to wait because there's 300 people ahead of him. Well, damn, we could have made repairs through a scope but we waited too long and the damage got worse so now we're looking at a total knee replacement! No, problem, right? Except now we've basically disabled this person all because some people thought that universal health care was the way to go. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll buy my own insurance.
                I respectfully ask that you provide sources to back up that claim.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                  Originally posted by Damn Yankee View Post
                  Liberals are always saying how complicated the Constitution is, and that we need scholars and judges to interpret it for us. But the Founders wrote it in plain language, for an 18th century population that wasn't nearly as educated as we supposedly are. Pick up a copy and read it, people. It's a very straightforward and easy to understand document.
                  ?

                  Liberals are always saying how complicated the Constitution is, and that we need scholars and judges to interpret it for us. But the Founders wrote it in plain language, for an 18th century population that wasn't nearly as educated as we supposedly are. Pick up a copy and read it, people. It's a very straightforward and easy to understand document.
                  Are you fucking serious? Have you even read the constitution? It is written is a version of English that is not even in use today and requires 10 years of schooling and tens of thousands of dollars to even have a rudimentary understanding of how it works. This was intentional as the creators of the document did not want the average, uneducated person to fully understand it. Leaving the vast majority of the population unable to adequately defend themselves in the court of law without being able to afford exorbitant fees required by lawyers. It was purposefully designed with loopholes to be exploited only by the aristocratic elite in order to keep the common rabble at bay. Anyone with an IQ above 100 understands this yet are financially unable to do anything about it. Even Jefferson in his wisdom knew this.

                  Even the freedom of speech is open to interpretation. Just look at SOPA and PIPA. Add to that the right to privacy via the Patriot Act. Are you really that gullible? So long as the government postures itself to impose your morals onto others, are you willing to give up basic rights to attain that?

                  Answer that to yourself honestly. Would you give the keys of the kingdom to people who only have their self interests at heart just to have abortion made illegal which has no impact in the slightest on our economic problems? Seriously. If you had two choices. One which solved ALL economic problems beyond any shadow of a doubt but required that you accept permanent, unconditional legal abortion and a well defined separation of Church and State. Or one that made the whole country poor except for a FEW THOUSAND people and declared a Christian state and making abortion punishable by death, which one would you support?
                  Last edited by TomBlaze; 01-18-2012, 10:35 PM.

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                  • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                    Originally posted by TomBlaze View Post
                    Are you fucking serious? Have you even read the constitution? It is written is a version of English that is not even in use today and requires 10 years of schooling and tens of thousands of dollars to even have a rudimentary understanding of how it works. This was intentional as the creators of the document did not want the average, uneducated person to fully understand it. Leaving the vast majority of the population unable to adequately defend themselves in the court of law without being able to afford exorbitant fees required by lawyers. It was purposefully designed with loopholes to be exploited only by the aristocratic elite in order to keep the common rabble at bay. Anyone with an IQ above 100 understands this yet are financially unable to do anything about it. Even Jefferson in his wisdom knew this.

                    Even the freedom of speech is open to interpretation. Just look at SOPA and PIPA.
                    .... So you cant read plain English?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                      Originally posted by thanatos144 View Post
                      Yep it is a damn shame I actually know what Anarchy means.
                      You and your red herrings!

                      It's a good thing I actually learned what the political philosophy of anarchy is ... too bad other people dismissed the wealth of information provided to them (and when I say "other people", of course, I'm talking about you); or at the very least, provide some links supporting their absurd and ignorant assertions (and when I say "their absurd and ignorant assertions," again, I'm talking about your absurd and ignorant assertions.

                      But anyway, we're discussing health care, so ...

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                      • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                        Originally posted by thanatos144 View Post
                        .... So you cant read plain English?
                        I wouldn't judge him, thanatos. You can't write plain English. He's talking about a document that is over 200 years old. He's also talking about a document which contains content that has been controversial since it's been written. It has taken legal experts on both sides of the political divide (both conservative and liberal) to understand and interpret what the Founders meant. This is nothing new and not even up for debate. If we knew what every single thing the document meant with 100% certainty, there would be no need for a Supreme Court nor a Supreme Court case.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                          Originally posted by TomBlaze View Post
                          Are you fucking serious? Have you even read the constitution? It is written is a version of English that is not even in use today and requires 10 years of schooling and tens of thousands of dollars to even have a rudimentary understanding of how it works. This was intentional as the creators of the document did not want the average, uneducated person to fully understand it. Leaving the vast majority of the population unable to adequately defend themselves in the court of law without being able to afford exorbitant fees required by lawyers. It was purposefully designed with loopholes to be exploited only by the aristocratic elite in order to keep the common rabble at bay. Anyone with an IQ above 100 understands this yet are financially unable to do anything about it. Even Jefferson in his wisdom knew this....
                          This is factually incorrect and any conclusion drawn from it are by definition illogical.

                          I'm curious about your comment about Jefferson though. Do you have any material that he wrote up to the signing or shortly thereafter that justifies your statement? He wrote the Declaration of Independence after all, and with great passion against such an aristocracy. If he felt another, more insidious was being created during his most influential years, surely there must be something that he wrote against it.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                            Originally posted by pappypappynut View Post
                            All insurance companies do is move money around. That is all the 'government takeover' would remove (and by definition make simpler and thus more efficient).
                            So you have never dealt with a government office?

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                            • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                              'Government takeover by definition would make things simpler and more efficient'. As I read it again I find it even more hilarious. That thinking is completely void of logic and common sense.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                                Originally posted by Damn Yankee View Post
                                SCOTUS has never been wrong?

                                Perhaps you can explain how is ObamaCare Constitutional. Is there a section or amendment of the Constitution that I am unaware of?
                                It's called the Commerce Clause...health care is interstate commerce, that everyone is engaged in, so the congress has the power to regulate it.
                                The court regarded as the most conservative in the country has upheld the law as constitutional.

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