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Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

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  • #31
    Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

    Originally posted by Jason Marcel View Post
    That's a nice scare tactic that represents nothing.

    Ask Michele Bachmann how she likes her universal health care for her and her large family.
    As long as it's free who would not want it. Give ten million dollars free and who would not talk it. Hell give me a dollar and I'll take it as long as it's free.

    Liberals once again think there is no end to the money supply. Everything should be free. I have to admit I like your idea of free everything a person wants. Can I have a free jet to fly around the globe and it's all free, including fuel, mainteance and of course a four person crew to piolit the plane and two servers offering me my coktial of choice? Fuck free healtcare I want a free jet, but being it's all free I'll take both.
    Last edited by Forplay; 01-11-2012, 09:53 PM.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #32
      Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

      Originally posted by Jason Marcel View Post
      The average conservative in America is brainwashed into believing that a private, free market entity will somehow care about your health more than they care about profit.
      The average liberal in America is brainwashed into believing that a public, all-powerful entity will somehow care about your health more than they care about power.

      Neither the government nor a private corporation has any good reason to care about your health. But you do have better ways of making sure that a private company holds up its end of the bargain, because in a competitive market, you would have other choices.

      See, greedy and unscrupulous people don't care if you call them "private" or "public" employees, they will simply go to where they can take more. And if you put the government in charge of everything, that's where they will go.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #33
        Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

        Originally posted by Forplay View Post
        I always have to laugh at you liberals, we now have a 15.5 trillion dollar national debt and rising by 1.5 trillion a yr. Yet you want FREE health care at the expense of raising our national debt from 1.5 trillion per yr to 2 trillion a yr. And you suggest to raise taxes, to cover free health care, yet we still borrow 1.5 trillion a yr to pay for the entitlements we already have and can't pay for. But as always you liberals think there is an endless supply of money. Based on the endless supply of money why not a free car every yr. or a new house every 3 yrs. Free babysitting for every American family that has a kid. I mean why not free everything, why would you stop at any one free thing you wanted, just make everything free.

        You liberals just can't get enough free stuff, why, because there is always an endless supply of money.
        I can't remember the last time I ever read that a liberal wanted something for free.

        Universal health care gives people more freedom and more money in their pockets, but it does have a cost, like everything else.

        I always have to laugh at conservatives, who think tax cuts are free, they pay for themselves, and that they create jobs and fix debts.

        Always have to laugh at conservatives who think it'll be free their plan to investigate every womb in America.

        Have to laugh at conservatives who think it'll be free to investigate and find every illegal immigrant and then deport them.

        Sorry, but liberals aren't the reason why America got herself right fucked up with 30 years of a trickle down policy that curiously only sent an endless supply of money upwards, and liberals are also not the reason why neo-cons thought that two wars and two huge tax cuts as well as Medicare Part D and the largest expansion of the US gov't in over a generation with Homeland Security would somehow be free of charge, which is why they instituted these things without paying for them.

        Then a liberal comes along, puts those things on the books, and somehow all that spending is his fault?

        What a laugh and a half.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #34
          Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

          Originally posted by Haplo View Post
          The average liberal in America is brainwashed into believing that a public, all-powerful entity will somehow care about your health more than they care about power.

          Neither the government nor a private corporation has any good reason to care about your health. But you do have better ways of making sure that a private company holds up its end of the bargain, because in a competitive market, you would have other choices.

          See, greedy and unscrupulous people don't care if you call them "private" or "public" employees, they will simply go to where they can take more. And if you put the government in charge of everything, that's where they will go.
          Yup, "we the people" do believe that we can take care of each other better than private insurance companies, and if that makes me a liberal than fine, even though health care is not actually a political issue anywhere in the world except for America, where brainwashed conservatives are taught to believe that socialism is the reason why health care costs are out of control despite the fact that it's a private system.

          So much for individual responsibility on the right in America. Every time a private system fails Americans, just blame socialism!

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #35
            Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

            Originally posted by Jason Marcel View Post
            Yup, "we the people" do believe that we can take care of each other better than private insurance companies ...
            I believe this as well. Moreso than you, I dare say, because I don't believe we need to resort to state coercion to accomplish it.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #36
              Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
              So, you agree then that to implement "free Universal Health Care" every American's taxes should go up? (And I do mean everyone, no exceptions.) BTW, Obama would disagree with you as it is clear he only is interested in raising taxes on *some* Americans.
              Yes. Everyone's taxes need to go up. And I'm well aware that President Obama would disagree with that statement, which is one reason I'm hoping to be able to vote against him this year. All the GOP has to do to win my vote this year is nominate a candidate that does not turn my stomach.

              If I were given unlimited authority to set tax policy, I would pass a Constitutional amendment that defines all of the income tax brackets by multiples of the Federal poverty line, prohibits deductions and exemptions, and then requires by Constitutional law that all changes in income tax rates affect all tax brackets proportionally; thus we would maintain the progressive income tax that I believe is essential to the function of the American government, but politicians would no longer be able to use government spending and tax increases for the "rich" to pander to the uninformed masses. I'd also abolish corporate and capital gains taxes in favor of taxing dividends and bonuses as regular income and taxing all second-hand sales of securities.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #37
                Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                Originally posted by MeadHallPirate

                regardin' the compromises...i am unsure what they might be. if, fer example, the Germans are sufferin' under thar system, i be unaware 'o it.

                - MeadHallPirate

                Well, the Germans are complaining as well about this and that, of course , but there is a reason they kept their health system ( that isn´t "free" by the way) through all storms of the 20th century. And on the whole Germans are spending about 10 % of GDP on health and cover everyone while the US are at 16/17 % and don´t cover everyone :

                Health Reform Without a Public Plan: The German Model - NYTimes.com


                Quote : /

                In Germany, statutory health insurance, which covers 90 percent of the population, is financed by a payroll tax. The individual’s premium is not a per-capita levy, as it is in the United States. It is purely income-based. Ostensibly, about 45 percent of the premium is contributed by employers, although economists are persuaded that ultimately all of it comes out of the employee’s take-home pay (See this and this).

                An employee’s non-working spouse is automatically covered by the employee’s premium.

                Unemployment insurance pays the premiums for unemployed individuals, and pension funds share with the elderly in financing their premiums, which are set below actuarial costs for the elderly.

                Finally, premiums for children are covered by government out of general revenues, on the theory that children are not the human analogue of pets whose health care should be their owners’ (parents’) fiscal responsibility. Instead, children are viewed as national treasures whose health care should be the entire nation’s fiscal responsibility.

                The health insurance premiums paid by Germans are collected in a national, government-run central fund that effectively performs the risk-pooling function for the entire system. This fund redistributes the collected premiums to some 200 independent, nongovernmental, competing, nonprofit “sickness funds” among which Germans can choose.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #38
                  Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                  Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                  ahoy Sluggo,

                  well...taxes may go up, i figure they might. still, 'tis a two part equation, and ye can't really discuss the merits 'o the taxes goin' up (if this in fact be the case) without measurin' the savings that americans will see on thar overall healthcare costs.

                  regardin' the compromises...i am unsure what they might be. if, fer example, the Germans are sufferin' under thar system, i be unaware 'o it.

                  - MeadHallPirate
                  Well my friend, I seem to be in the same boat with you unsure of the exact costs, controls, trade offs, or "sufferin'" perhaps going on under the German, Canadian, or anyone else's healthcare system. But the concern is worth exploring since what we are talking about must come with some cost someone will end up with the bill for. (Then again, there always is just adding more debt.)

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #39
                    Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                    Originally posted by Korimir View Post
                    Yes. Everyone's taxes need to go up. And I'm well aware that President Obama would disagree with that statement, which is one reason I'm hoping to be able to vote against him this year. All the GOP has to do to win my vote this year is nominate a candidate that does not turn my stomach.

                    If I were given unlimited authority to set tax policy, I would pass a Constitutional amendment that defines all of the income tax brackets by multiples of the Federal poverty line, prohibits deductions and exemptions, and then requires by Constitutional law that all changes in income tax rates affect all tax brackets proportionally; thus we would maintain the progressive income tax that I believe is essential to the function of the American government, but politicians would no longer be able to use government spending and tax increases for the "rich" to pander to the uninformed masses. I'd also abolish corporate and capital gains taxes in favor of taxing dividends and bonuses as regular income and taxing all second-hand sales of securities.
                    We seem to at least have some level of agreement.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #40
                      Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                      The first problem is the fallacy that if the people can't afford something, somehow they'll be able to afford it through taxes. Doesn't work that way. If we can't afford health care as individuals, we can't afford it through the government either. What will happen instead is that you'll give as much money to the government as you'd spend on your own health care anyway, and they would decide how to spend it. But some people are comforted by that because in a single-payer system, 90% of the time the patient never knows what treatments they are missing out on. Whereas if you have private insurance or pay cash, you know exactly what you can't afford.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #41
                        Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                        Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                        if yer a valued employee, then a private corporation has good reason to care about yer health. i mean, 'tis hard to believe that Apple didn't care about the health 'o Steve Jobs.

                        i also believe that the government has good reason to care about the health 'o its citizens.

                        - MeadHallPirate
                        A company has an incentive to have healthy employees. A government has no such incentive. Politicians fear voters. Voters get angry if the health care system isn't working for them. So instead of being geared towards health, the system is geared towards making sure most people get served well. Since most consumers of health care only take advantage of the basics and emergency care, that's where most resources go in a single-payer system. People with chronic conditions, who are very expensive to treat, and are a small minority, tend to get the short shrift. Politics dictates all government spending, especially health care.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #42
                          Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                          Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                          ahoy Sluggo,

                          imma not as well versed on this topic as Rude_Boy, but isn't thar some kinda trade off that happens (in this case, i mean a good trade-off).

                          taxes might go up, but the cost that americans pay fer thar healthcare will go down, and go down more than taxes would go up, aye?

                          if that be the case, wouldn't this be acceptable?

                          - MeadHallPirate
                          And the rub is, you don't even have to raise taxes to implement such a system. The system could pay for itself with the cost savings alone.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #43
                            Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                            Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
                            I have no idea if that is really true or not (I suspect others do not as well,) but I would like to see the numbers on that as well as what is traded off to ensure costs go down. It is a justifiable concern since we are talking about government controls. But just because you and I say that may be a good trade off, does not mean we have considered everything in this complicated subject. What is compromised to ensure costs stay down?

                            My original question still stands, are we in agreement that to implement "free Universal Health Care" that all Americans should see a tax increase? (no exceptions.)
                            Respectfully, Sluggo, please read the FAQs up thread and you will get the answers to your questions.

                            Also, and I'll have to do a search to look it up, but a prominent conservative think tank (or publication, I can't remember) has now effectively endorsed the single-payer idea. I'll look it up when I get to work.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #44
                              Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                              Originally posted by Forplay View Post
                              I always have to laugh at you liberals, we now have a 15.5 trillion dollar national debt and rising by 1.5 trillion a yr. Yet you want FREE health care at the expense of raising our national debt from 1.5 trillion per yr to 2 trillion a yr. And you suggest to raise taxes, to cover free health care, yet we still borrow 1.5 trillion a yr to pay for the entitlements we already have and can't pay for. But as always you liberals think there is an endless supply of money. Based on the endless supply of money why not a free car every yr. or a new house every 3 yrs. Free babysitting for every American family that has a kid. I mean why not free everything, why would you stop at any one free thing you wanted, just make everything free.

                              You liberals just can't get enough free stuff, why, because there is always an endless supply of money.
                              Stop starting wars and trim the bloated defense budget. Defense ain't free, bucko.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?

                                Originally posted by MeadHallPirate
                                ahoy Forplay,

                                well, i have to laugh at you, matey. not conservatives, mind ye....just you.

                                ye want all kindsa shit also, from a war with Iran to a 2000 mile militarized fence, and you have no fuckin' clue how to pay fer any 'o it.

                                so please, climb off yer soapbox, lighten' up on the hyperbole, and gimme a break.

                                - MeadHallPirate
                                Fuckin' quoted for truth.

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