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The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

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  • #61
    Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

    I'm with matrix on this, where is the evidence? Not all, but most of what people hate about the PPACA is strait up paranoia. From "death panels" to "forcing fatties to join a gym"... these sensationalistic ideas, which are used to describe the extreme "consequences" of the law, are a gross misrepresentation of how it is not only written but what it's actually supposed to do.

    It's fine to argue a certain policy or prevision will lead to unintended consequences, that's perfectly reasonable, but the vast majority of the evidence supporting the arguments I see here are unreasonable, and remind me of the "gateway drug" style arguments I heard growing up in the 90's. "the government will use preventative care to force us to work out" "Free-contraceptives will lead to socialism" "smoking dope leads to hard drugs", it's all crazy talk! Who in their right mind believes the government will take away our freedoms in the form of universal healthcare? When has that ever happened in the history of humanity? And most importantly where in the law does it explicitly take away our rights? Have any of you actually read the law and know specifically which provisions are in jury?

    I just find it ironic, of all the asinine shit we allow our government to invest in, it's not the never ending war on drugs/terror/middle east, or the Patriot Act, or the indefinite detention provisions of the NDAA that has everyone up in arms, it's our government investing in the poor and uninsured so they have access to healthcare.

    And this is coming from someone who see's Romneycare, or Obamneycare, as a mediocre solution to all the problems we face going forward, including both the lack of care for the poor AND our debt issues AND rising medical costs.

    So if you're like me and have problems with the lack of coverage for the poor AND public debt, than consider a single payer system. Single payer is cheaper than public insurance because it's non-profit, and in other countries it has lead to better health and longer lifespans as more people are treated with preventive care. A single payer, non-profit health system is a win-win situation for us all.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #62
      Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

      Originally posted by Matrixx8 View Post
      I can appreciated up-front ideological arguments against state intervention, but not Chicken Little fear mongering -- especially when there's no empirical evidence to back it up.

      That is what I don´t get about debates with Americans about this issue. Since ( I will probably get crucified for saying that ) I am under the impression that the supposedly free market US have far more state interventions on health care than we do, with worse results, higher costs and not even covering everybody. In Germany the health ministry appoints a panel of experts that negotiates with insurance providers a catalogue of measures, drugs, therapies etc. that EACH provider, wether public or private HAS to cover without lengthy discussions or bureaucracy. Everything else is optional and the providers can compete on that for customers, like certain therapies, wellness trips, single bed rooms in hospitals etc. Everyone has the choice to go public or private, with the majority ( over 80 % ) remaining in the public system however, since that works pretty well.
      Especially for average or below average earners the public system has the advantage of having to take people regardless of pre-existing conditions ( private insurers are free who do take or not), relatively moderate fees, and always having a branch office near you.
      Fees depend on your income, and start at 150 ( for low earners) and 370 ( for self-employed people ) Euros a month. The poor, unemployed, chronically ill etc. are covered by the public system as well, which is still considered cheaper than creating a medicare/medicaid style bureaucratic cost monster. That has not kept Germanys public insurers to score a profit of about 5 billion last year. Shortly put, the governement sets a framework (designed to keep the burden for customers within acceptable limits), under that market players can operate, compete and advertise their services.
      And I have NEVER heard that pharma companies and healthcare operators would do badly here.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #63
        Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

        Originally posted by Voland View Post
        That is what I don´t get about debates with Americans about this issue.
        I lived in Europe for about 16 years. The last 3 years managing an industrial repair facility which employed around 600 local nationals. The German foremen tended to have supplemental insurance to cover things that the standard government program did not and it was relatively expensive for the time. The care was good, but for anything other than an acute ailment there were waits well beyond what we have in the US. We would do well to use the negotiated price for drugs and providers in the US to lower our costs as well. But that is not the issue I have with the ACA here in the US.

        My problem with the ACA has to do to the many changes it makes in our tax code which gives the IRS virtual dictatorial control of family information well beyond simply knowing what one earns and how much tax must be paid.

        I wonder if we have any tax specialists on the forum who could look into this further and tell us exactly what it all translates to in plain English.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #64
          Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

          Originally posted by dnsmith View Post
          I lived in Europe for about 16 years. The last 3 years managing an industrial repair facility which employed around 600 local nationals. The German foremen tended to have supplemental insurance to cover things that the standard government program did not and it was relatively expensive for the time. The care was good, but for anything other than an acute ailment there were waits well beyond what we have in the US.

          It is possible that they had supplementals like long-term care insurance or accident insurance ( which is not uncommon for industry workers), all normal healthcare procedures are covered under the standard system ( which is NOT a governement program). And actually german waiting times are european average and definitely not way beyond the US :


          OECD iLibrary: Statistics / Health at a Glance / 2011 / Waiting times

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #65
            Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

            Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
            MIGHT?

            Have.

            I am diabetic, insulin dependent. I got notice that next year when another phase of Obamacare goes live my insulin pump will no longer be covered by Insurance due to regulations in Obamacare.

            I have brittle diabetes and my sugar levels spike up and down making it very hard to maintain a even keel. The insulin pump has tuned a spiking graph of sugar numbers into a more mellow sign wave which makes it easier to control my diabetes and avoid the health problems from spiking sugar. With the new regulation in Obamacare, I can no longer have the pump. If I buy the pump for myself out of my pocket they will not cover my insulin for it.

            So yes I fear what the government will do with the control over how people get health care.
            You obviously do not care about those without health care, or those whose insurance policies would be cancelled if they made a large claim.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #66
              Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

              Originally posted by dnsmith View Post
              I lived in Europe for about 16 years. The last 3 years managing an industrial repair facility which employed around 600 local nationals. The German foremen tended to have supplemental insurance to cover things that the standard government program did not and it was relatively expensive for the time. The care was good, but for anything other than an acute ailment there were waits well beyond what we have in the US. We would do well to use the negotiated price for drugs and providers in the US to lower our costs as well. But that is not the issue I have with the ACA here in the US.

              My problem with the ACA has to do to the many changes it makes in our tax code which gives the IRS virtual dictatorial control of family information well beyond simply knowing what one earns and how much tax must be paid.

              I wonder if we have any tax specialists on the forum who could look into this further and tell us exactly what it all translates to in plain English.

              The majority of the tax provisions in the ACA which will directly effect individuals and families are geared toward herding people toward a single payer system.

              The first thing that most people will notice will be a slightly larger "haircut" as to what they can deduct for medical expenses. Right now people who itemize can deduct the amount they spend on medical care which exceeds 7.5% of their Adjusted Gross Income. Beginning in 2013 that that deduction will be reduced to the amount that exceeds 10% of AGI. This will primarily effect retirees who, generally, spend more than anyone else on pills and doctors and also tend to have lower AGI's than those still working. For a "generic" retired couple this will probably amount to an additional $500-1000 in taxes.

              For those of you still working, if your employer offers a Flexible Spending Account you will find that you can only contribute up to $2500 now so if you happen to use that account for regular dental, optical and child care you are probably going to come up short. Sorry about that.

              If you happen to be a little bit better off and, as a couple, make more than $250k you will see some good times ahead! You may as well bet on Capital Gains rates going to 20% and your marginal rate going to 39.6% with the partial sunset of EGTTRA but on top of that the ACA will impose an additional 3.8% tax on investment income. Keep in mind that this surtax will be applied not just to Cap. Gains but also to interest, rental income, passive income from partnerships, etc.

              Now, for everyone else.....you probably won't see any changes right away but they are happening. If you receive medical benefits from your employer you still won't be taxed on them but the amount will be reported to the IRS. It's not entirely clear what the IRS (or Congress) plans on doing with that little piece of information quite yet but do you think it's going to be to your advantage to have that information disclosed?

              And my favorite side effect of these new taxes.....As I said before, the "rich" are going to get socked with an additional 3.8% tax on investments. Well, fuck 'em, they're rich! Right? Well, maybe not because that tax will now be imposed on "Qualified Dividends". And what are Qualified Dividends you might ask? Qualified Dividends are dividends paid on stock from US companies. It was kind of an incentive to get people to support their American outfits. Well, that's done so now, if you want a good dividend producer in your portfolio no need to look stateside any more!

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #67
                Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                Luther,
                Can we define "rich" and some examples of how that 3.8% raise on their marginal income is going to ruin their lives?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #68
                  Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                  Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                  Luther,
                  Can we define "rich" and some examples of how that 3.8% raise on their marginal income is going to ruin their lives?
                  Well, Obama defines rich as a couple making more than $250k (or, another change due to the expiration of EGTTRA, an individual making more than $200k). That's not my definition but for this discussion we may as well go with it.

                  If you read the comments you will notice that it's not a 3.8% surtax. It's a 3.8% surtax on top of a 5% tax bump so the whole hit is 8.8%.

                  Now let me ask you, is "will it ruin their lives?" the standard you think that we should use for determining a reasonable tax rate?

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #69
                    Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                    Originally posted by lutherf View Post
                    Well, Obama defines rich as a couple making more than $250k (or, another change due to the expiration of EGTTRA, an individual making more than $200k). That's not my definition but for this discussion we may as well go with it.

                    If you read the comments you will notice that it's not a 3.8% surtax. It's a 3.8% surtax on top of a 5% tax bump so the whole hit is 8.8%.

                    Now let me ask you, is "will it ruin their lives?" the standard you think that we should use for determining a reasonable tax rate?
                    I believe, unlike the sound bites oft offered by our reps and talk show hosts, that grouping a hard working individual who makes 500K with someone who makes 5 million a year with someone making 10 million a year etc..., is a moron.
                    The problem is, whet do we do in a Trickle Across the Ocean Economic system that will cause taxes to go up anyways as a means to cover Emergency Room visits?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #70
                      Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                      Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                      The problem is, whet do we do in a Trickle Across the Ocean Economic system that will cause taxes to go up anyways as a means to cover Emergency Room visits?
                      Well, in my opinion, the best option would be to do the stuff that makes people want to do business here instead of there. Frankly, I don't see hammering "the wealthy" as being terribly effective in that regard.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #71
                        Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                        Originally posted by lutherf View Post
                        Well, in my opinion, the best option would be to do the stuff that makes people want to do business here instead of there. Frankly, I don't see hammering "the wealthy" as being terribly effective in that regard.
                        Besides slave labor what else does a business want?
                        Do you actually believe that without Southern Black slaves or Northern White slaves NOBODY would have come to the US?
                        Maybe everybody would have stayed in Europe.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #72
                          Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                          Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                          Besides slave labor what else does a business want?
                          Do you actually believe that without Southern Black slaves or Northern White slaves NOBODY would have come to the US?
                          Maybe everybody would have stayed in Europe.
                          When you decide to get serious we can continue this discussion.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #73
                            Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                            Originally posted by lutherf View Post
                            When you decide to get serious we can continue this discussion.
                            Are you kidding me?
                            I am serious.
                            Long Island and NYC are awash in illegals making less than minimum.
                            The Small Business Authority here has the DA by the balls.
                            This is slave labor, plain and simple.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • #74
                              Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                              Originally posted by Forplay View Post
                              That's right, you got it, Goober. Lets see the government will tell you to lose weight and that you can only weigh a certain amount compared to your height. And if you don't comply, they will fine you, take away you're kids, take away your food, raise your taxes, make you join a gym, make you run 10 miles a day, work on weekends for the government, etc etc shall I go on.

                              But of course you love the power of government over the people
                              That's fucking silly. Excepting possibly for "raising your taxes" every one of the things you listed would cost so much to enforce they'd bust the gummint themselves alone...and as far as raising my taxes any of them can do that anytime they want, whether I'm overweight or not.

                              I'm far more concerned the pubs will start another war and tax me for that.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • #75
                                Re: The Real Reason to Fear Obamacare

                                Originally posted by John Drake View Post
                                That's fucking silly. Excepting possibly for "raising your taxes" every one of the things you listed would cost so much to enforce they'd bust the gummint themselves alone....
                                But the power to tax behavior is enough, right? As Justice Roberts has explained, taxation is pretty much the only power government needs these days.

                                Changing society one tax at at ime - The Hill's Congress Blog

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