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  • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

    Death Panels...
    You know how my in-law's primary physician handles that?
    By letting us in on all the alternatives of latter life care.
    It would be great if every 20 year old even KNEW about Long-Term Health Insurance rather than getting screwed when their parents or they get ill in old age and have to go through the hell of applying for Medicaid.
    It would save our nation a lot of money.

    מה מכילות החדשות?

    • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

      Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
      Since Obamacare was passed my insurance rates went up, twice, AND now I have a deductible that I did not have before. I did the math and it is costing almost $2000 more a year for my insurance now. I am diabetic and go to the doctor 4 times a year minimum, plus eye doctor, dentist and other miscellaneous due to diabetes related issues. As I stated before my insulin pump will no longer be covered as of 2014 and if I buy one out of pocket they will refuse to supply me with insulin which means I go back to the spiky graph of my sugar highs and lows by using a needle to induce insulin into my body.

      Not to mention you women might want to be aware that your monthly feminine products are now classed as medical devices and will receive a government medical device tax.
      I'm sorry for you. That is unfortunate. Hopefully issues like yours will be worked out sooner rather than later, but it's not unusual that a few will be negatively impacted by new policies while others benefit. My insurance became free to me this year. I do have a $2500 deductible now that I didn't have before, and it won't pay for a thing until I go over that deductible; but I'll only hit my deductible if I become pretty ill. Since preventative screenings now have no copay and I don't take any prescription meds... I'll likely not have to pay a dime out of pocket for healthcare this year. Knock on wood. I'm thinking the $1700 that I save this year will more than pay for a small tax on my tampons.

      On the plus side... if you should for any reason lose your current insurance due to changing jobs or what have you... you can not be turned down for new insurance on the basis of your health. By the sounds of it... that could have been a very real possibility for you in the past.
      Last edited by Unique POV; 06-28-2012, 05:03 PM.

      מה מכילות החדשות?

      • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

        Originally posted by Invisible-Bob View Post
        Hey you know what? Life is risky and there are no guarantees stamped on your birth certificate. No body owes you anything just for being you.
        Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

        That's what you get for being you.

        מה מכילות החדשות?

        • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

          Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
          Good point.
          The question is if our premiums skyrocketed to take advantage of profiting until ACA kicks in and knocks those premiums back down or if those premiums will remain the same.
          That is a good question. Since it is now mandated that insurance companies MUST spend 85% of their income on ACTUAL healthcare, what would they do with the increased premiums?

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by Jason Marcel View Post
          I don't follow what you're saying.

          They aren't, nor should they be. Although it's ironic, this President has overseen about 4 million private sector jobs while losing public sector ones and the previous President saw public gains and private flatlining.
          I think that Thanatos incorrectly thought that when George Washington mandated that all sailors must have hospital insurance.... that those sailors were all govt employees rather than merchant marines and the like.

          מה מכילות החדשות?

          • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

            Originally posted by darth omar View Post
            I guess I should read the ruling. OTOH, nobody read the stinking bill before they voted on and passed it.

            Isn't the tax just a mechanism to force people into commerce they might not otherwise engage in? I can accept partisans in congress doing an end-around the COTUS but it's disturbing when the Supreme Court gets in on it.

            They are supposed to be the gate-keepers.
            I would say the tax is a mechanism to force people into commerce they will engage in at some point, whether they like it or not, deny it or not.

            Health care is in private hands. That means the minute you're born or become an American, you're an automatic customer. Your mother's vagina is really just a doorway into the United States of Walmart, just like the rulers want.

            Profit, profit, profit...tis why health care in America is too expensive and why things like diabetes are an epidemic when they needn't be. I'd much rather have a focus on healthier people and higher worker productivity than profits for a few and diabetes for tens of millions. Makes no sense.

            מה מכילות החדשות?

            • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

              Originally posted by Unique POV View Post
              Of course not. That was tongue in cheek. I'm sure you must recall how frequently the "death panels" were touted as one of the evils that would surely come about as a result of healthcare reform.
              If the government's back is against the wall, and they cannot possibly cut back on anything else, nor anyway to 'increase revenues' to pay for the healthcare costs, what do you think they'll be forced to institute?

              All I can hope is that this situation never arrives, but somehow it seems unavoidable given the track record of how our dear federal government and congress contain costs in some sort of rational manner.

              מה מכילות החדשות?

              • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                Originally posted by Invisible-Bob View Post
                How that man could determine that the constitution allows the fedeal government to levy a tax as a punitive measure is beyond me. I'm not an expert on constitution but even I know that it only allows taxes to be imposed for the purpose of generating revenue not to punish. He made his decision based on politics and not the rule of law. I mean it's so fucking obvious. JESUS CHRIST!
                I agree with that completely, but if you look at the politics of the issue, Roberts played this one brilliantly. He didn't want the court to strike down the whole law because as Chief Justice he was worried about the reputation of the court. By forcing four liberal justices to endorse limits on the commerce clause and federal power to coerce using federal funds, he actually pulled of a tremendous coup.

                מה מכילות החדשות?

                • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                  Originally posted by soot View Post
                  All the insurance company is telling you in those situations is that they don't want to do business with you.

                  But they're not preventing you from getting healthcare because when you get right down to it they don't provide healthcare.

                  It's the doctors and nurses who provide healthcare.

                  If everyone has some kind of God given right to healthcare then we should be forcing the doctors and nurses to provide free healthcare to anyone who can't afford to pay them.

                  But why stop with doctors and nurses?

                  Shouldn't everyone be able to have anything that they want?

                  Shouldn't everyone, regardless of what they do for a living, provide it free of charge?

                  Since most people don't own their own business and aren't in business for themselves they provide labor.

                  Ultimately your argument is that people, everywhere and everyone, should be providing free labor.

                  Paradoxically, and based on other discussions you've participated in, I happen to know that you're a supporter of unions and organized labor.

                  How do those two beliefs mesh?

                  On the one hand you argue that people should be required to provide their labor for free, while on the other hand you advocate for laborers organizing and fighting managment for more and more of a company's profits?
                  No. Health care is a unique thing because it is critical to a functioning civilized society. Same goes for general security, fire protection, ambulance services, public judicial services. These are industries that should not be for profit. Letting someone's house burn down because they didn't make their taxes is unthinkable (though is happened in the 1800s). Same goes for letting someone's house get robbed. In every other Western industrialized country, the same goes for letting someone die because they are too poor to afford insurance for cancer treatment. It can't be equated to broccoli or anything else because it is apart of the unique minimums required by society. You have a terrible system and it's killing 45,000 people per year. It's causing many more to go bankrupt. It's not functioning and the costs will eventually ruin your economy because you are treating like a business.

                  Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                  Very good points. I can't wait for the explanation of this from Danny, that is if he chooses to respond.
                  The only reason any conservative is against this is because a Democrat proposed it. The mandate was the Republican position for 20 years. It would be nice if you just came out and admitted it, as offensive as that would be.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?

                  • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                    Danny, all of those other examples you cited are provided by the state. Do you think doctors should become government employees?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?

                    • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                      Originally posted by Unique POV View Post
                      It's interesting how everyone is assuming this is going to increase healthcare costs. Is insurance cheaper when you work for a very large company or a very small company? Typically when you work for a very large company insurance costs are much lower because there are more people in the pool which drives costs down for everyone. Are goods more expensive or cheaper when you have more people actually paying for them instead of getting them for free? Typically they are much cheaper when more people actually pay for them, because the amount that wasn't payed for is always spread out among those that do.
                      The issue isn't that the ACA creates some huge insurance pool that will magically lower costs for plans; the issue is that this massive regulation and interference created by the ACA will have the effect of further consolidating power in the "big insurance" companies that already have a virtual monopoly...thereby increasing that monopoly. Hence why, once again all of these big insurance companies lobbied for Obamacare in the first place. Since they are and will be the monopoly (backed by the government) with no competition, they can set whatever price they want - and they will - and it will NOT be cheaper than now, I can promise you that.

                      That's why health insurance costs so damn much now - the insurance companies have a monopoly backed by government regulation and code.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?

                      • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                        Originally posted by adaher View Post
                        Danny, all of those other examples you cited are provided by the state. Do you think doctors should become government employees?
                        Anyone who bills Medicare or Medicaid is, at least in part, a government employee.
                        And I knew quite a few physicians whose practices are at least 85%-90% Medicare and they've got pretty big mansions.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?

                        • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                          Originally posted by Jason Marcel View Post
                          Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

                          That's what you get for being you.
                          None of those include a "right to health insurance" or healthcare for that matter. Since you seem intent to [basically] quote John Locke, please show me in his works where he says anything about a Natural Right to healthcare/insurance.

                          There doesn't exist one: if the government can grant you a right (like healthcare) it can certainly take it away or modify it as it pleases. Hence why one only has a right to life, liberty and PROPERTY (as originally written by Locke, Founders changed to "pursuit of Happiness"). Healthcare is something that does not exist in a perfect state of nature (as life, liberty and the accumulation of "things" is) and it doesn't magically become a "right" once man falls under a government from a perfect state of nature (once again as talked about by Locke in his works). You want the best access to healthcare and insurance, how about this:


                          Now that shit will lower prices in healthcare, which by extension will lower them in the insurance industry. Well, that and NOT inflating the currency like it is going out of style.

                          Why is it that health insurance costs used to be so lower and premiums so much lower? (there are multiple answers to this one)

                          Why is it that the State governments and the Feds REQUIRE you to use third party insurance when dealing with your doctor (and they do, I can back this one up)?

                          HOW is it that "big insurance" and "big pharma" became so "big" in the first place?

                          Where is this mythical "free market" all you liberals claim exist, that happens to be the supposed "cause" of everything wrong in healthcare? Seriously, where the fuck is it? We don't have a free market, but I'll pose the same challenge to you that I did to Danny: Prove there is a free market in healthcare and that it (empirically) is the CAUSE of rising prices in health and insurance. Prove it.

                          Why hasn't Medicare and Medicaid, passed in the 1960's, why haven't they gotten rid of our nation's healthcare woes and brought down the price? They exist to help the elderly and the poor afford and have access to insurance, so why hasn't the price dropped dramatically? Why are the poor today even less able to afford insurance and there are "40 million without insurance" if we have these awesome great government programs that were supposed to fix that problem 40+ years ago? Why has the price, no matter how many TENS OF THOUSANDS of regulations we have on the health insurance industry, why has the price continued to sky-rocket, despite government interference, regulations, and programs? Why?

                          מה מכילות החדשות?

                          • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                            Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                            Anyone who bills Medicare or Medicaid is, at least in part, a government employee.
                            And I knew quite a few physicians whose practices are at least 85%-90% Medicare and they've got pretty big mansions.
                            Still not the same as the other examples Danny listed. We don't have private police forces that bill the government, they work for the government. Which is why in order for his argument to be valid, he would logically support putting doctors on the federal and state payrolls and ending private practices.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?

                            • Re: Individual Mandate / Obamacare Stands as Tax

                              Roberts was simply unwilling for his legacy to be a court that was utterly, nakedly, transparently, partisan. Good for him, in a way, but it makes me think he's about as smarmy as he looks.

                              Great win for the nation, though.
                              Last edited by jpn; 06-28-2012, 06:45 PM.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?

                              • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                                Here's something I didn't know:

                                Who is eligible for Medicaid? It depends on where you live:
                                In New York, most adults up to 150 percent of the poverty line are covered; in Texas, Medicaid reaches only to 26 percent of the poverty line — a family of four is not eligible if they earn, say, $9,000 a year.
                                Fucking Texas, man. Fucking Texas...
                                -You couldn't pay me enough to live in that God-forsaken state.
                                Last edited by jpn; 06-28-2012, 06:42 PM.

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