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SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

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  • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

    Originally posted by dblack View Post
    This, indeed. The only silver lining I see in the abysmal decision on the individual mandate is that it highlights an issue I've been trying to raise for some time. Tax incentives are mandates. Anyone who recognizes the injustice in Congress mandating customers for it's corporate sponsors, yet defends "incentives" like the home mortgage interest deduction needs to understand that they come from the same illicit place. They are both based on the notion that we can use the taxation power to manipulate society. The fact that both major parties endorse this practice has obliterated the concept of limited government.
    As long as ANY level of government can tax, the "individual responsibility" phrase is nothing more than an ideological sound-bite.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

      Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
      With our global economy whittling down enrollment in health care and our ever increasing taxes going towards hospital emergency rooms and the fact that for-profit health care is the opposite of a volume business model, I am growing a bit weary of hearing about individual responsibility.
      I'm curious, why is it that this "paying taxes for medical insurance is all about personal responsibility" such a big deal now? Why wasn't it a bid deal when everyone was getting medical coverage through their employer....tax free? I mean, nobody was paying taxes then and the "personal responsibility" issue never came up. Hell, if I remember correctly it wasn't all that long ago that a bunch of folks in Wisconsin got in a rather nasty snit because their employer wanted them to cover some of their own insurance cost!

      If I didn't know any better I'd think that some folks are just echoing the words of Pelosi and Wasserman-Schultz et al.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

        Originally posted by lutherf View Post
        I'm curious, why is it that this "paying taxes for medical insurance is all about personal responsibility" such a big deal now? Why wasn't it a bid deal when everyone was getting medical coverage through their employer....tax free? I mean, nobody was paying taxes then and the "personal responsibility" issue never came up. Hell, if I remember correctly it wasn't all that long ago that a bunch of folks in Wisconsin got in a rather nasty snit because their employer wanted them to cover some of their own insurance cost!

        If I didn't know any better I'd think that some folks are just echoing the words of Pelosi and Wasserman-Schultz et al.
        The "personal responsibility" was weathering multi-hour interviews and making sure the employer got more than their bang for the buck.
        Like most people who grew up in Brooklyn I had no concept of "Medical Insurance" being a perk to attract the better talent.
        After we had children the importance of Medical Insurance became apparent.
        After being replaced time and again by labor that reflected better on the company's quarterly report my reaction become...
        If our Reps can sell us out, they can also use the power granted by all levels of government to grant us the ability to have affordable health care.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

          Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
          As long as ANY level of government can tax, the "individual responsibility" phrase is nothing more than an ideological sound-bite.
          I disagree. Taxes can abide the equal protection provision. Even income taxes, as long as any deductions are legitimately aimed at calculating real net income. It will never be perfect, but currently, both parties endorse the idea of using the taxation power as a means of dictating behavior. At the very least we can insist that an taxation is justified as a means to generating revenue for government. The notion that it can be used to punish behavior is antithetical to any sane concept of limited government.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

            Originally posted by dblack View Post
            I disagree. Taxes can abide the equal protection provision. Even income taxes, as long as any deductions are legitimately aimed at calculating real net income. It will never be perfect, but currently, both parties endorse the idea of using the taxation power as a means of dictating behavior. At the very least we can insist that an taxation is justified as a means to generating revenue for government. The notion that it can be used to punish behavior is antithetical to any sane concept of limited government.
            A lot of behavior has already been dictated by both parties via the WTO.
            At least the Constitutionally approved ACA is concerned a little bit with Americans.

            But I think you should discuss this with Chief Justice John Roberts the next time you are at a banquet attended by members of Congress and Wall Street Directors and CEOs.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

              Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
              As long as ANY level of government can tax, the "individual responsibility" phrase is nothing more than an ideological sound-bite.
              And with regard to the individual mandate - you have it completely backwards. Responsibility is exercising the freedom to decide for yourself how to handle risk and uncertainty, and the dealing with the results. Laws like the mandate, remove that decision from the individual and likewise alleviate them of the responsibility. Insurance is paying for the right to be as irresponsible as you like, free of any repercussions.

              - - - Updated - - -

              Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
              A lot of behavior has already been dictated by both parties via the WTO.
              At least the Constitutionally approved ACA is concerned a little bit with Americans.

              But I think you should discuss this with Chief Justice John Roberts the next time you are at a banquet attended by members of Congress and Wall Street Directors and CEOs.
              As surprising as it might be, I don't get invited to those. If I were to attend, I'd be more likely to piss in his martini than to address him as a person.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                Originally posted by dblack View Post
                Responsibility is exercising the freedom to decide for yourself how to handle risk and uncertainty, and the dealing with the results.
                I'd rather eliminate the portion of my taxes that go to Stop Signs and Traffic Lights because I'm a polite driver.
                My local Reps disagree with me.

                Originally posted by dblack View Post
                Insurance is paying for the right to be as irresponsible as you like, free of any repercussions.
                You've never had your auto, dental or health insurance rise due to accidents or bad teeth or age related maladies catching up with you?
                I have.

                Even a life insurance carrier asks about your health and drug habits before insuring you.

                There are lots of repercussions in life, especially when your rates go up or your policy is canceled.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                  Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                  I'd rather eliminate the portion of my taxes that go to Stop Signs and Traffic Lights because I'm a polite driver.
                  My local Reps disagree with me.
                  These are rules we all agree to follow for expedience. The cost for following them is minimal. They're not engineered to benefit corporate interests. Not sure what parallel you're seeing.

                  You've never had your auto, dental or health insurance rise due to accidents or bad teeth or age related maladies catching up with you?
                  I have.
                  Insurance is one means of dealing with risk. As a means of financing regular expenses it's irrational. Forcing all of us to engage in irrational activity is idiotic and corrupt. Or, to put it another way, you don't have a right to inexpensive insurance, and you have no right to force others to play along for your convenience.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                    Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                    The "personal responsibility" was weathering multi-hour interviews and making sure the employer got more than their bang for the buck.
                    Like most people who grew up in Brooklyn I had no concept of "Medical Insurance" being a perk to attract the better talent.
                    After we had children the importance of Medical Insurance became apparent.
                    After being replaced time and again by labor that reflected better on the company's quarterly report my reaction become...
                    If our Reps can sell us out, they can also use the power granted by all levels of government to grant us the ability to have affordable health care.
                    So, in a nutshell, doing the work was the responsible thing and paying taxes on that insurance....not so much. Yet, for some strange reason, today it's paying the taxes for insurance that is the "responsible" thing.

                    Hmm....

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                      Originally posted by lutherf View Post
                      So, in a nutshell, doing the work was the responsible thing and paying taxes on that insurance....not so much. Yet, for some strange reason, today it's paying the taxes for insurance that is the "responsible" thing.

                      Hmm....
                      I'm not the one who brought up personal responsibility.
                      I'm simply reflecting on the fact that one thing leads to another.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                        Originally posted by dblack View Post
                        These are rules we all agree to follow for expedience. The cost for following them is minimal. They're not engineered to benefit corporate interests. Not sure what parallel you're seeing.



                        Insurance is one means of dealing with risk. As a means of financing regular expenses it's irrational. Forcing all of us to engage in irrational activity is idiotic and corrupt. Or, to put it another way, you don't have a right to inexpensive insurance, and you have no right to force others to play along for your convenience.
                        Most of the people I know HATE Stop Signs and Traffic Lights and Traffic Cameras and Yield Signs.
                        Plus all the taxes hidden in our Phone Bills and Cable Bills.
                        Damn! I'm paying taxes all over the place for civil projects in parts of the country I'll never visit and corporate projects I'll never get to enjoy the fruits of.
                        In fact, Nassau County has perhaps one stop sign every three or four blocks as opposed to NYC where there's one every block.
                        And Nassau County has more than it's share of auto accidents.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                          Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                          I'm not the one who brought up personal responsibility.
                          I'm simply reflecting on the fact that one thing leads to another.
                          Oh I understand that. I'm just using your comment to drag out the discrepancy with the current Democrat talking point....which you were good enough to repeat.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                            Originally posted by Chloe View Post
                            Is he? Depends on what your perspective is i guess...for me as a liberal he is and will be for the rest of this cycle trying to win people like me over. He already seems to have called a truce on healthcare, much to everybody's chagrin:

                            http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/poli...alth-care.html
                            Just pointing out that theres people who dont care if someone flip flops so long as theyre flopping the way they want. Obama does the same thing. Not that I support either of them. Different shades of wrong.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                              Originally posted by dblack View Post
                              And with regard to the individual mandate - you have it completely backwards. Responsibility is exercising the freedom to decide for yourself how to handle risk and uncertainty, and the dealing with the results. Laws like the mandate, remove that decision from the individual and likewise alleviate them of the responsibility. Insurance is paying for the right to be as irresponsible as you like, free of any repercussions.
                              If people actually acted as you describe... WONDERFUL! However, there is a segment of the population out there who can afford medical insurance, but chooses to go without because they might have to skimp on their cell phone, cable tv or the car and house that is just a bit nicer than they can REALLY afford. Then when they get sick and the huge hospital bill comes in... they rationalize not paying it because they couldn't afford insurance... how can they afford this giant bill? They just stiff all of us responsible folk. At least now... those people will have to pay SOMETHING.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?


                              • Re: SCOTUS decision in ACA case - ALL DISCUSSION HERE

                                Originally posted by Unique POV View Post
                                If people actually acted as you describe... WONDERFUL! However, there is a segment of the population out there who can afford medical insurance, but chooses to go without because they might have to skimp on their cell phone, cable tv or the car and house that is just a bit nicer than they can REALLY afford. Then when they get sick and the huge hospital bill comes in... they rationalize not paying it because they couldn't afford insurance... how can they afford this giant bill? They just stiff all of us responsible folk. At least now... those people will have to pay SOMETHING.
                                Hardly likely.
                                I know a few people who have inherited homes with debt owned to Nursing Home and Hospital Emergency Rooms and the house is in lien.
                                It's too easy to spout these ridiculous assertions.

                                מה מכילות החדשות?

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