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Obamacare, Otherwise Known as The Affordable Care Act (ACA)

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  • How will you make it an infrastructure project and not have it as part of the government with nationalised healthcare?

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Originally posted by Commodore View Post
      It will be so terrible, that young healthy can merely exist without being fined.
      This may blow your mind but young people need to help pay for the older generations healthcare so they will have to pay by some means.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
        How will you make it an infrastructure project and not have it as part of the government with nationalised healthcare?
        It's a question of what is in the public interest. Having a stocked and staffed facility in the community to deal with public health issues is in the public interest. Using the government to make your neighbor pay for your choices is another.
        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
        This may blow your mind but young people need to help pay for the older generations healthcare so they will have to pay by some means.
        And contributing to the aforementioned infrastructure will help. But ones health is most often an aggregate of a lifetime of choices, and everyone bears responsibility for the choices they make, and for the health care goods and services they use.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Originally posted by Commodore View Post
          It's a question of what is in the public interest. Having a stocked and staffed facility in the community to deal with public health issues is in the public interest. Using the government to make your neighbor pay for your choices is another.

          And contributing to the aforementioned infrastructure will help. But ones health is most often an aggregate of a lifetime of choices, and everyone bears responsibility for the choices they make, and for the health care goods and services they use.
          How exactly do you plan to pay for that public facility if you think asking people to pay for it is not an option?
          Also who gets to decide what illnesses are self inflicted and thus not covered I doudt you want it to be a government official.
          Will you cover things like cancer or alzheimer's as those will financially cripple almost all families but again if we want those people not to be financially crippled you will need people and mostly young people to help pay.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post

            How exactly do you plan to pay for that public facility if you think asking people to pay for it is not an option?
            Also who gets to decide what illnesses are self inflicted and thus not covered I doudt you want it to be a government official.
            Will you cover things like cancer or alzheimer's as those will financially cripple almost all families but again if we want those people not to be financially crippled you will need people and mostly young people to help pay.
            You may be shocked but I have nothing against a single payer health care system. What I have a problem with is the government using that system to obtain votes from people to keep themselves in office and the people enslaved to them. A single payer system run by an independent non profit organization that all paid into and all got care from would be fine with me. I believe we have sufficient tax money going to the government right now to fund such a system quite well. We would have to cut some useless programs and divert that money to the health care system but that could be done. The reason it will not happen is that politicians want all the money and all the power over our lives that they can exact from us.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

              You may be shocked but I have nothing against a single payer health care system. What I have a problem with is the government using that system to obtain votes from people to keep themselves in office and the people enslaved to them. A single payer system run by an independent non profit organization that all paid into and all got care from would be fine with me. I believe we have sufficient tax money going to the government right now to fund such a system quite well. We would have to cut some useless programs and divert that money to the health care system but that could be done. The reason it will not happen is that politicians want all the money and all the power over our lives that they can exact from us.
              If you look at the basic spending you guys actually spend more per person than we do on the NHS but you get a worse system that doesn't benefit all in the same way the NHS does. Yes you may have some better single hospitals but for Joe Bloggs in the middle of nowhere just wanting a decent hospital and local family doctor our system is better.

              I think a single payer system will always have the possibility of you seeing it as buying votes as there will always be a claim that people will simply vote for whoever (this has amazingly swapped parties in the uk many times with one party being more keen then switching) claims they will spend the most on the service.
              The thing with healthcare is though that not everyone cares that much about it until they really need it so it may not be as big of a vote earner as you may expect.

              As for the running of the healthcare I agree that the people running it should be the professionals who will also give out a general guideline on how much money is needed to keep hospitals and surgeries open and running well which the politicians can then bicker over.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                How exactly do you plan to pay for that public facility if you think asking people to pay for it is not an option?
                Also who gets to decide what illnesses are self inflicted and thus not covered I doudt you want it to be a government official.
                Will you cover things like cancer or alzheimer's as those will financially cripple almost all families but again if we want those people not to be financially crippled you will need people and mostly young people to help pay.
                Same way we pay for roads, bridges, and other infrastructure, out of general revenue.

                See, right now, we have socialized medicine in the form of Medicaid, for the poor, and Medicare, for seniors, that are paid as a separate deduction out of ones income. These funds go into one big pot, giving providers zero incentive to lower cost. Before long, as the Baby Boom Generation ages, the expenses coming out of that pot will exceed revenue from the aforementioned deductions, requiring more crippling taxes, or rationing of service. Other countries get around this by capping payments, a de facto rationing of service, and provides providers with zero incentive or even the resources to improve service. A simple Google search can provide ample examples of such NHS horror stories from whatever newspaper you choose to believe.

                The reason is the same as every entitlement, they are ponzi schemes. They depend on many having many more contributors than beneficiaries. And when the demographics change, and no longer provide those numbers, the whole thing falls apart. And people who have paid into it all their lives are going to be pissed to hear that, but its simple math. They are scooping money right out of their kids pockets. They can't bemoan the eventuality that their kids have a lower standard of living than they did without taking responsibility for it. A different formula is needed.

                And that formula is this: a health care infrastructure is established out of the general fund. Consumables, materials, medicines, ect, used are paid by the customer. Catastrophic and end of life care are covered by private insurance.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                  This may blow your mind but young people need to help pay for the older generations healthcare so they will have to pay by some means.
                  Nonsense. Robbing peter to pay paul in otherwords. Redistributing income by govt. mandate is another way for everyone to get ripped off, except govt. workers of course. They exempt themselves from such B.S. . . . I wonder why they do that ?

                  ... they do that because it's Ok for everyone else to get ripped off, just not THEM.

                  I know that won't blow your mind, you think this is Ok.

                  What happens when people stop having and raising kids - as many now do, raising kids is a lot of work and expensive - and there are millions of elderly depending on a small population of "young people" to fund their "care" ? What do we do then ?

                  I'll tell you what we do. We allow millions of immigrants in from 3rd world countries to fund this expense. These immigrants like to have a lot of kids.

                  ... just some things to consider.

                  But maybe this is all good for us. We got lazy, let ourselves be invaded and taken over peacefully ... even helped it along !

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • You honestly think people will decide not to have kids because of taxes?
                    You do know the birth rate has dropped all over the world and has nothing to do with taxes don't you?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                      You honestly think people will decide not to have kids because of taxes?
                      You do know the birth rate has dropped all over the world and has nothing to do with taxes don't you?
                      Survey says...

                      Ding!

                      1. Kids aren't always financially feasible — especially if you have student loans.
                      Whether it's the medical costs of giving birth or the lifetime financial commitment that having a child entails, financial reasons were one of the most popular behind why people didn't want kids. Many respondents also specifically called out their student loans as a reason for not being able to afford kids — a trend that doesn't seem to be going anywhere, if the total student debt of the Class of 2015 is any indication.

                      "It leaves your body and it costs $20-30K. I've $40K in student loans already taking up the rest of my life. And that's best case scenario. If anything goes wrong, double it."

                      "I'm pan[sexual] and currently in a relationship with a woman. Having a child biologically would involve a huge medical bill."

                      "If I can hardly afford to live well now on my income, how can I be expected to give a child the life they deserve?"
                      It's not always number one, but it's always there.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                        You honestly think people will decide not to have kids because of taxes?
                        You do know the birth rate has dropped all over the world and has nothing to do with taxes don't you?
                        I didn't say that. What I said was;

                        "What happens when people stop having and raising kids - as many now do, raising kids is a lot of work and expensive - and there are millions of elderly depending on a small population of "young people" to fund their "care" ? What do we do then ?"

                        There are many reasons for this, "taxes" and other burdensome BS surely play a part, however, that wasn't the point really.

                        It isn't the governments job to make sure everyone has "healthcare." That only makes healthcare worse, more expensive and lower quality. If healthcare is a "right," it isn't but lets play, why would we ruin something like this that's a supposed "right" ?

                        There's no good answer.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Ok this should be good.
                          How exactly does the fact that most of Europe access to some form of government controlled socialised healthcare make it worse?

                          If there is as you say "no good answer" why not go for a system that covers everyone and everyone payed for it via taxes and is free at the point of use so you aren't punishing the sick for the simple crime of being sick. Sickness isn't a choice and healthcare isn't like any other cost as it can't be put off when people need it.
                          The reason the NHS is so popular is not because it's the greatest healthcare system in the world it's popular because if you have a family and a child gets a life threatening disease or cancer they will be treated and the family won't face the choice between paying for treatment or paying the mortgage.

                          As I said healthcare is a unique cost and having everyone chip in to help pay for it helps everyone in the long run.
                          Just because it doesn't cost me anything to go to see a GP or visit a hospital doesn't mean I'm constantly going it just means I know I always can regardless of my ability to pay.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                            Ok this should be good.
                            How exactly does the fact that most of Europe access to some form of government controlled socialized healthcare make it worse?
                            The herd mentality is never a good reason to do anything. Just ask the Israelites.

                            As stated above, socialized medicine pools the public's money, encouraging providers to compete to collect as much of that pool as possible, inflating cost, and capping the payout discourages quality care.

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                              Ok this should be good.
                              How exactly does the fact that most of Europe access to some form of government controlled socialised healthcare make it worse?

                              If there is as you say "no good answer" why not go for a system that covers everyone and everyone payed for it via taxes and is free at the point of use so you aren't punishing the sick for the simple crime of being sick. Sickness isn't a choice and healthcare isn't like any other cost as it can't be put off when people need it.
                              The reason the NHS is so popular is not because it's the greatest healthcare system in the world it's popular because if you have a family and a child gets a life threatening disease or cancer they will be treated and the family won't face the choice between paying for treatment or paying the mortgage.

                              As I said healthcare is a unique cost and having everyone chip in to help pay for it helps everyone in the long run.
                              Just because it doesn't cost me anything to go to see a GP or visit a hospital doesn't mean I'm constantly going it just means I know I always can regardless of my ability to pay.
                              Beyond pointing out that Europe does it and you think it's great & even "popular" ( which you would assure me that everyone in Europe would agree with of course ), you haven't shown that healthcare....

                              - a concept really is what it is, we could argue about what "healthcare" is forever . . . like the govt does -

                              .... is something the govt. has any right to take over and mete out as they see fit by having everyone pay into a giant slush fund to be distributed by faceless "administrators" at their discretion.

                              It's offensive, not only to me, but to many Americans, to suggest that we all have to rely on a small group of other people - "administrators" if you will - to manage something as personal as our healthcare, how we pay for it or any PART of it. It's not their business ! They have no right or real ability to take over a thing like this to supposedly "help everyone." It sounds great, but in the end it's a pipedream/nightmare. You keep telling yourself how great it is, and I'm glad you think so. So keep it and never-mind us, we're not your problem.

                              מה מכילות החדשות?



                              • Why Americans Can’t Have Universal Healthcare Like Europeans

                                For example, Britain has a relatively well-regarded universal healthcare system that every citizen pays for through national income tax. The tax rate for income tax and National Health Insurance in the United Kingdom (England) in 2015-16 for all citizens earning between zero and £31,785, considered basic-rate (flat rate) taxpayers, is a whopping 20 percent of their entire income. It is a full 15 percent more than America’s middle class tax rate and would entail a 20 percent tax hike for 45 percent of Americans who pay nothing now.

                                If a British citizen earns just one pence over that “basic threshold,” their income tax rate jumps to 40 percent up to £150,000. For income over that number the rate is 45 percent; all to cover the National Health plan administered solely by the government with a form of rationing.

                                For a comparison, and one reason why many Democrats are reticent to go all-in to support enactment of single-payer in America, in 2015, 45 percent of Americans with earned income paid zero income tax. One cannot comprehend how nearly half of the population living in poverty and barely making it and then saddled with a 20 percent tax bill will embrace being poorer to have basic healthcare when they will be unable to eat or pay rent.

                                http://www.politicususa.com/2016/02/...europeans.html

                                Last edited by msc; 11-25-2016, 04:54 AM.

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