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Obamacare, Otherwise Known as The Affordable Care Act (ACA)

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  • Originally posted by Commodore View Post
    If health care is a right, then health care professionals are slaves.
    Good point. Lets define health care as a "right" and see what kind of health care professionals we end up with.

    We'd better be very careful in telling healthcare professionals that they have to provide their services with no compensation - OR compensation "managed by a government agency."

    Most people can't even imagine the amount of non-sensical laws and endless paperwork healthcare professionals already have to deal with. Now with obummercare, it's worse than insane.

    These kinds of socialist fantasies never have the effects their supporters dream of. Yet the dreamers keep trying them ... now forcing them upon us.

    Interesting how obummers "care" had to be passed in the dead of night on a Christmas eve by only a few people (passed December 24, 2009, Christmas Eve, by a straight Democrat party vote. ) ... like a group of criminals planning a bank robbery or something.

    If it was such a great thing, WHY did it have to be forced through in the dead of night ? If it's such a great thing, WHY did it have to be forced through by only one party of politicians ?

    On a Christmas eve no less ! The gift that will give us misery for years !!! How exciting !!!
    Last edited by Captain Trips; 02-28-2015, 04:57 PM.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Someone should free the million or so NHS healthcare slaves in the UK but so far it seems this slavery problem has gone unnoticed.

      What a travesty.
      This may come as a shock but it is possible to have an opinion on rights that is at odds with the US constitution and yes healthcare is considered a right by most in the UK which is why we have the NHS.
      Last edited by PeterUK75; 02-28-2015, 05:49 PM.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Healthcare is a right for those working to support a community. It has most likely been that way since humans came into existence. Unless one of the libertarians can come up with a time or circumstance when a working community member was routinely refused health care services by the local shaman/doctor? That doesn't even happen now, nor does it happen in Singapore or any other libertarian pseudo-paradise.

        Another point that is repeated countless times and likewise ignored by righties: either find a way to make health care affordable to any working person, or pay extra local taxes for the unpaid emergency room visits. Those heart attack emergency room visits are going to be mighty pricey compared to affordable cholesterol medicine, labs and a couple of doctor visits per year.

        To get around that, we'd have to pressure the MD's to ditch their hippocratic oath, so they would not be obligated to treat the seriously ill unless they were able to pay. Good luck with that, BTW. Even if the docs go for it, you won't find more than a very small minority of politicians who would risk pushing for that change.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
          Someone should free the million or so NHS healthcare slaves in the UK but so far it seems this slavery problem has gone unnoticed.

          What a travesty.
          This may come as a shock but it is possible to have an opinion on rights that is at odds with the US constitution and yes healthcare is considered a right by most in the UK which is why we have the NHS.

          Rights are actions you are allowed to take. Rights are not goods and services you receive. Rights do not confer obligations onto others.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Originally posted by radcentr View Post
            Healthcare is a right for those working to support a community. It has most likely been that way since humans came into existence. Unless one of the libertarians can come up with a time or circumstance when a working community member was routinely refused health care services by the local shaman/doctor? That doesn't even happen now, nor does it happen in Singapore or any other libertarian pseudo-paradise.

            Another point that is repeated countless times and likewise ignored by righties: either find a way to make health care affordable to any working person, or pay extra local taxes for the unpaid emergency room visits. Those heart attack emergency room visits are going to be mighty pricey compared to affordable cholesterol medicine, labs and a couple of doctor visits per year.

            To get around that, we'd have to pressure the MD's to ditch their hippocratic oath, so they would not be obligated to treat the seriously ill unless they were able to pay. Good luck with that, BTW. Even if the docs go for it, you won't find more than a very small minority of politicians who would risk pushing for that change.
            Healthcare is expensive for a lot of reasons, only SOME of which can be managed a bit. The costs of being a Dr. have grown exponentially due to education and legal costs, not to mention the time invested by these people to provide these services.

            Now we want to include paying a group of government bureaucrats to assist with paying insurance costs, treatment managements etc. ad infinitum.

            This is most definitely NOT the way to bring costs down for everyone !!

            It certainly isn't going to help those that think health care is a right. You can bitch and complain that it's your "right" all you want while you wait 6 months to a year for an operation because your not "priority" - according to the standards set by some faceless bureaucrat somewhere.... you might die waiting !!!

            Do you really think it's wise to follow through with some cookie cutter method of healthcare that gets managed by people that are NOT actually IN healthcare ?

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


              Rights are actions you are allowed to take. Rights are not goods and services you receive. Rights do not confer obligations onto others.
              I like the way you put that!

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Perhaps if our gov't wasn't so irresponsible in spending our monies, people would voluntarily assist others in getting healthcare. Not by being forced to sacrifice, but by choosing to sacrifice or having a surplus as a means to assist others without having to sacrifice. And for those who would never sacrifice, I guess some believe that people should not have the RIGHT to be selfish. That's pretty much what it comes down to. No faith in humanity and no right to be selfish. We need the Mommy/Daddy gov't telling us how we should behave and feel, because people as whole are not capable. Do as I say and not as I do!
                Last edited by msc; 03-01-2015, 07:19 AM.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                  Rights are actions you are allowed to take. Rights are not goods and services you receive. Rights do not confer obligations onto others.

                  Unless I'm mistaken nobody forces people to work for the NHS and again unless I'm mistaken healthcare workers in the US who work for things like medicaid (which is as near to the NHS as you can get as far as I know but I could be completely wrong) aren't considered slaves just because they get paid by government for treating people.
                  The argument that because we see healthcare as a right means healthcare workers are slaves is stupid.

                  Seriously do you think NHS workers are slaves because we consider healthcare a right to all regardless of ability to pay? Healthcare workers are doing a job just as firemen are and yes we have different credientials to what a right is than what's in your constitution.

                  It's a constitution it's not a worldwide law and not everyone follows it.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post


                    Unless I'm mistaken nobody forces people to work for the NHS and again unless I'm mistaken healthcare workers in the US who work for things like medicaid (which is as near to the NHS as you can get as far as I know but I could be completely wrong) aren't considered slaves just because they get paid by government for treating people.
                    The argument that because we see healthcare as a right means healthcare workers are slaves is stupid.

                    Seriously do you think NHS workers are slaves because we consider healthcare a right to all regardless of ability to pay? Healthcare workers are doing a job just as firemen are and yes we have different credientials to what a right is than what's in your constitution.

                    It's a constitution it's not a worldwide law and not everyone follows it.

                    So, if the brick layer gets his salary set by the government and I want some bricks laid, he will come to my place and lay them for the government prescribed rate. And if I want some doughnuts, I can buy them at the government set cost. I should be able to demand that you work for me at what ever rate the government decides is fair. Sorry, I prefer our system.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Originally posted by msc View Post
                      Perhaps if our gov't wasn't so irresponsible in spending our monies, people would voluntarily assist others in getting healthcare. Not by being forced to sacrifice, but by choosing to sacrifice or having a surplus as a means to assist others without having to sacrifice. And for those who would never sacrifice, I guess some believe that people should not have the RIGHT to be selfish. That's pretty much what it comes down to. No faith in humanity and no right to be selfish. We need the Mommy/Daddy gov't telling us how we should behave and feel, because people as whole are not capable. Do as I say and not as I do!
                      There are MANY people and a LOT of monies given out by people as a sacrifice for others all the time in America.

                      Voluntarily.

                      You see occasional recognitions of this given in the media, but not many. There will always be selfish people. America has a LOT of charitable people that give and aren't recognized for it - and don't need the recognition, because that isn't their motive.

                      The main point is ... the LAST thing America needs, is one more way for our government to redistribute and waste the peoples money !

                      In healthcare ? It can only cause misery and poverty ! Our government was simply not designed to do such a thing.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                        Healthcare is expensive for a lot of reasons, only SOME of which can be managed a bit. The costs of being a Dr. have grown exponentially due to education and legal costs, not to mention the time invested by these people to provide these services.

                        Now we want to include paying a group of government bureaucrats to assist with paying insurance costs, treatment managements etc. ad infinitum.

                        This is most definitely NOT the way to bring costs down for everyone !!

                        It certainly isn't going to help those that think health care is a right. You can bitch and complain that it's your "right" all you want while you wait 6 months to a year for an operation because your not "priority" - according to the standards set by some faceless bureaucrat somewhere.... you might die waiting !!!

                        Do you really think it's wise to follow through with some cookie cutter method of healthcare that gets managed by people that are NOT actually IN healthcare ?
                        Now we're getting down to brass tacks (where did that phrase come from, BTW?) Your point about gummint bureaucrats was addressed by me in previous posts; our current trouble with insurance providers stems from problems with both the right and left wing politicians. The right doesn't see the non-profit sector as a legitimate solution, or is deathly afraid of allowing non-profits to cross state lines. The left wishes to maintain a gov't. monopoly -their "single payer" solution- because they suppose that non-profits would be unable to coordinate an economy of scale for health care provision. We have the left and right in full agreement, then. Both are deathly afraid of a regional/national network of non-profits that are partially controlled by gov't. technocrats (auditors), rather than politicians and their lobbyists.

                        That controls some costs, should non-profits actually enter the national picture. The other part -cost of medical education and technology- is difficult for different reasons. Students with potential should pay $5 per semester for their education. If they make the grades and other requirements for med school, that should be bumped up to $100 per semester. In return, the new doc pays society back by adhering to the patient treatment cost schedule -agreed to by non-profits and a board of retired physicians- for a period of 10 years. Taxpayers do our part by paying taxes to fund education -pretty much what we're doing right now. The right wing gets their finger in the pie by putting tort limits on physicians' malpractice, and opening that insurance up to non-profits as well. Let's face it, a physician that screws up badly enuf or often enuf doesn't need to pay more in malpractice -he needs to lose his license outright and quit driving up premiums for his more competent colleagues.

                        The problem with technology is, it is "too new" for the majority of us. Give us "older technology", if that is somewhat more affordable. If there are problems with single source machinery or materials, due to patents or other bottlenecks, maybe we can start by enforcing the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Otherwise, we get second-class treatment, as I already recognized. That isn't because gov't. is providing the insurance or care either, Capn T. It is because that is what we can currently afford, anyway. I waited a year for vein surgery because I'm in the second tier; my insurance is private (not gov't.) and that caused the delay. Unlike some righties, I recognize I'm in the second tier. Unlike some lefties, I accept it as well. I, like 95% of my fellow citizens, cannot afford the best care. Second best is pretty darn good, so I'm still happy with it. I just want to avoid monopolies (gov't. single payer) and cartels (private, for-profit sector insurance) when it comes to essential services like health care. Extremely difficult to get a broad spectrum of politicians to accept this and work toward true reform, however.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • Originally posted by Captain Trips View Post

                          There are MANY people and a LOT of monies given out by people as a sacrifice for others all the time in America.

                          Voluntarily.

                          You see occasional recognitions of this given in the media, but not many. There will always be selfish people. America has a LOT of charitable people that give and aren't recognized for it - and don't need the recognition, because that isn't their motive.

                          The main point is ... the LAST thing America needs, is one more way for our government to redistribute and waste the peoples money !

                          In healthcare ? It can only cause misery and poverty ! Our government was simply not designed to do such a thing.
                          Certain church organizations have been providing health care for quite awhile now (St Whatever -Catholic- hospital, fe). The voluntary charity model would have taken over if it were as effective as msc claims. It hasn't done all that well, so it would be only part of the solution, at best.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • All very good, and worthwhile points to ponder.

                            Still, I can see nothing positive coming out of being penalized by the IRS for NOT buying a product that has to pass "government muster."

                            I do not need or want anyone informing me that what I buy has to "be this" or "do that" or have "XBS" in it.

                            And that by God, I'd better buy one too !!

                            מה מכילות החדשות?


                            • Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post


                              Unless I'm mistaken nobody forces people to work for the NHS and again unless I'm mistaken healthcare workers in the US who work for things like medicaid (which is as near to the NHS as you can get as far as I know but I could be completely wrong) aren't considered slaves just because they get paid by government for treating people.
                              The argument that because we see healthcare as a right means healthcare workers are slaves is stupid.

                              Seriously do you think NHS workers are slaves because we consider healthcare a right to all regardless of ability to pay? Healthcare workers are doing a job just as firemen are and yes we have different credientials to what a right is than what's in your constitution.

                              It's a constitution it's not a worldwide law and not everyone follows it.
                              Well healthcare providers are being held captive in the sense that the gov't says who they have to treat in order to gain the money they need to survive in their field. It may not be a tit for tat analogy, but it falls under some aspects of slavery. A big difference is that slaves don't have the option to refuse and have the luxury of struggling to survive if they don't do what the gov't says.

                              I'm thinking you're not familiar with the rules and regulation within our healthcare system.

                              The CMS is a gov't run entity that dictates the rules and regulations for the insurance companies and health care providers.

                              Worker's comp is a program implemented by the gov't to prevent lawsuits when someone is injured on the job. If a person has a WC case open and for example needs physical therapy. Then the insurance carrier decides that they will no longer pay for PT, yet the patient needs it to function, The patient's Major Med. insurance will not pay because the patient has a WC case, and the med. provider is not allowed to accept cash. By the decision of the gov't.

                              If the patient is on Medicare, they patient's responsibility is usually 20%. The provider has to collect the 20% and if he does not, he needs a letter from the patient with proof that the patient can not afford it.

                              If the insurance companies feel that the med. provider did not give appropriate documentation that complies with CMS rules, they can deny payment. The rules are constantly changing and when providers try to get accurate information to follow procedure properly and document to appropriately, a different answer is given depending on the operator you get. It's next to impossible to find out what is necessary to get payment for services on many occasions. And if you fight it, you sometimes get a judge that did not pay attention to the appropriate guidelines and rules against the provider. Arbitration is expensive. The small practice is certainly held captive.

                              Many more examples of how the gov't's rules and regulations harm the providers and the patients, but gotta go to work.

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                              • My wife was a nurse and we socialized with a lot of medical professionals. Most doctors here today will tell you that half of their income goes to paying for malpractice insurance and paperwork required by the government. More is required to pay for offices, equipment, nursing staff, etc. Many doctors have given up private practice as it is no longer affordable. They are now employed by a major hospital who simply pays them a salary and provides all of the other costs.

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