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Fred Phelps dying horribly.

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  • #61
    Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

    Originally posted by Commodore View Post
    Public education aside, to this day there are many Christian denominations that do no encourage their parishioners to read the source material of their faith, because that would threaten the power of the clergy. That is the only charlatans like this guy, and quite possibly Phelps himself, ever get any traction.

    It's the product of of modern day laziness and legacy of the hundreds of years of European history where for the vast majority of the population, the translation, publishing, and ownership of a Bible in a language one could understand was a crime punishable by death.

    There is a fascinating documentary on the matter, titled The Fires of Faith... Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.
    Don't know of any church that encourages people not to read the source material. I'm sure it happens but I'm also sure its not common.
    There are many more that take verses and twist them. Like this example. This only works because a lot of people are STUPID. REALLY. REALLY. STUPID.

    Not to say that the bible doesn't have plenty in it about killing homosexuals (torah) or homosexuality being an abomination (torah and new testament from pauls writings). Its just that Christ was saying "I"m the only one allowed to throw stones. And I aint. So yall fuck off before I start throwing stones at you" in the example passage and the preacher, and his congregation, and anyone who agrees with that interpretation of the passage, is possessed of weaponized stupidity and should be taken behind the woodshed and beat with a hose.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #62
      Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

      The Law of the old testament was presented as a way to salvation. That law was fulfilled and replaced when Christ made a different way to salvation. Your salvation is no longer based on your works.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #63
        Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

        Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
        The Law of the old testament was presented as a way to salvation. That law was fulfilled and replaced when Christ made a different way to salvation. Your salvation is no longer based on your works.
        Which is true and immaterial to the statement I made. Paul still makes it quite clear that homes equality is abomination using the same word choice the torah does. And Christ was still notably silent on the matter

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #64
          Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

          Originally posted by reality View Post
          Which is true and immaterial to the statement I made. Paul still makes it quite clear that homes equality is abomination using the same word choice the torah does. And Christ was still notably silent on the matter
          Yes, but we don't live under the law where you stone someone to death for sin. Christ died to atone for our sins.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #65
            Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

            Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
            Yes, but we don't live under the law where you stone someone to death for sin. Christ died to atone for our sins.
            And again, a point that is immaterial to my statement. Paul goes far out of his way (he was writing in another language) to use the same word choice "abomination" when describing homosexuality. Other abominations in the bible one is exhorted to kill as a matter of obedience to God.
            That's a fact jack. Its also a fact that none of that applies after Christ says "Let He who is Without Sin cast the first stone" because HE IS without sin and refuses to cast a stone at anyone not money changing in the temple (only time he got pissed off on record, much less intitiated violence). But then people don't care about that because after that story, you get to paul and HIS ideas and well.... people tend to glom on to the hateful parts for some reason. Probably because people are assholes.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #66
              Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
              The Law of the old testament was presented as a way to salvation. That law was fulfilled and replaced when Christ made a different way to salvation. Your salvation is no longer based on your works.
              What would James have to say about that?

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #67
                Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

                Originally posted by Commodore View Post
                What would James have to say about that?
                Nothing. Faith is at the core of what james discusses about abraham. Abraham had faith in God, which led to his actions, which TOGETHER justified him. But the FAITH led to the action, the FAITH is at the core. It can be argued that true faith LEADS to works inevitably and thus faith is all that is truely required as entailed into that faith are works.

                Aren't semantic games fun?

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #68
                  Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

                  Originally posted by reality View Post
                  Nothing. Faith is at the core of what james discusses about abraham. Abraham had faith in God, which led to his actions, which TOGETHER justified him. But the FAITH led to the action, the FAITH is at the core. It can be argued that true faith LEADS to works inevitably and thus faith is all that is truely required as entailed into that faith are works.

                  Aren't semantic games fun?
                  Yes, works are the result of faith, not the other way around. Works are for the glorification of God not for the glorification of the worker.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #69
                    Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

                    Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                    Yes, works are the result of faith, not the other way around. Works are for the glorification of God not for the glorification of the worker.
                    Depends on the person doing them and their particular reason for doing so. If they, say, build a school in mexico because "God would want me to help these people" then there ya go. faith.
                    If they build the same school because "I have a moral responsibility to extend the help I am able to provide to those less fortunate than I as a matter of rational self interest" then not so much.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #70
                      Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

                      Originally posted by Commodore View Post
                      What would James have to say about that?
                      I did not know James personally so I'm not sure what he would have said beyond what he did say:
                      "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24)
                      which might present a problem since Paul said
                      "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . " (Rom. 3:20)"for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law," (Rom. 3:28)
                      "For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'" (Rom. 4:3)
                      "Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1)
                      "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5)
                      since I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself, I figure there has to be some other explanation for these two apparently opposed positions.

                      now, you'll have to read most of James Chapter 2 to get the full context (and thereby meaning ) of what he was saying there, but basically he was agreeing with Paul. James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). Notice he starts that thought out by referencing someone who says he has faith ... But his life doesn't show it (like the Demons in v. 19), so his "faith" is useless.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #71
                        Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

                        He's offended a lot of people, but if you look at the big picture he's probably hurt his cause more than he's helped it. The members of his church seemed to have a few screws loose, and that has nothing to do with their anti-gay stance. You're going to alienate almost anyone after picketing a soldier's funeral (except for the few nuts that already agree with you). But maybe that was the point. After all, the man once was a lawyer fighting for civil rights. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he was gay himself.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #72
                          Re: Fred Phelps dying horribly.

                          Originally posted by AJG View Post
                          He's offended a lot of people, but if you look at the big picture he's probably hurt his cause more than he's helped it. The members of his church seemed to have a few screws loose, and that has nothing to do with their anti-gay stance. You're going to alienate almost anyone after picketing a soldier's funeral (except for the few nuts that already agree with you). But maybe that was the point. After all, the man once was a lawyer fighting for civil rights. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he was gay himself.
                          You are correct in that he was his own worst enemy. His methods were vile and you will also note that there were many, many Christians out there protesting his activities and blocking his access to the families of the fallen. One of the differences between Christians and Muslims is that when Christians identify a bad actor they take action to ostracize that bad actor.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?

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