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OWS Violence in Oakland

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  • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

    Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
    I am curious. Do you think that the OWS crowd is doing enough to distance themselves from the violent elements? Doesn't embracing "diversity of tactics" imply accepting the violent elements?

    Occupy Oakland, IIRC, refused to condemn the violence by protestors there citing "diversity of tactics".
    It is difficult to get a clear look at exactly what is going on with this leaderless movement. I watch mostly FNC, but CNN as well, and bit and pieces of the others. Since I just got C Span back, I will be watching less of the corporate media. Now, when OWS first came on the radar, and corporate media started covering it, I noticed something odd going on. There was an attempt to show this movement in a negetive light, overall. I saw many interviews on the streets by MSM that appeared to have cherry picked the ones they talked to. To on purpose, to try and represent this group as anything but having a genuine cause to protest against. In rare moments I would see an interview with a well spoken man, educated, that laid out the problems for the 99 per cent.

    Until you get a large poll of the OWS crowd, and have them agree in a majority that the Oakland deal, the vandalism, the violence is acceptable, I will continue to believe that the acts of a few are just that, the acts of the few. And I will not make the mistake of coloring the entire movement by the actions of the few Reason dictates this.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
      It is difficult to get a clear look at exactly what is going on with this leaderless movement. I watch mostly FNC, but CNN as well, and bit and pieces of the others. Since I just got C Span back, I will be watching less of the corporate media. Now, when OWS first came on the radar, and corporate media started covering it, I noticed something odd going on. There was an attempt to show this movement in a negetive light, overall. I saw many interviews on the streets by MSM that appeared to have cherry picked the ones they talked to. To on purpose, to try and represent this group as anything but having a genuine cause to protest against. In rare moments I would see an interview with a well spoken man, educated, that laid out the problems for the 99 per cent.

      Until you get a large poll of the OWS crowd, and have them agree in a majority that the Oakland deal, the vandalism, the violence is acceptable, I will continue to believe that the acts of a few are just that, the acts of the few. And I will not make the mistake of coloring the entire movement by the actions of the few Reason dictates this.
      The media is always going to focus on the most vocal nut in any crowd. Crazy gets ratings. Ratings get money.

      Do you think the "leaderless" nature of the movement facilitates the involvement of the violent elements?

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
        Not the same gang. What is the same is that some people see the inequity, the economic injustice, raise hell about it, and you don't like it.
        no sorry, not the same. I'm all for addressing inequity and economic justice, you are off base there. I'm not supporting a world revolution. I support responsible fiscal change and support of the individual without their being team-rolled by the state.

        Poverty will never die. It has been with us for as long as man has been here. All that one can do, is to try to help the poor. That is a noble effort, although you will never end poverty. Many are saved in the process. Yet the cons only concentrate on the failures, while ignoring the successes. They do this, some of them, because they really don't like the poor. Policy is driven by emotions, both constructive and destructive.
        We have a virtually identical portion of poor people now as we did when the war on poverty started. We have the best poverty money can buy. Poverty has won.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

          Originally posted by MattInFla View Post
          The media is always going to focus on the most vocal nut in any crowd. Crazy gets ratings. Ratings get money.

          Do you think the "leaderless" nature of the movement facilitates the involvement of the violent elements?
          Sure, yet some seem to brag about the movement being leaderless. It isn't practical, in any sense, if they seek change, which can only come through the political system.

          This movement seems to be to have spontaneously happened, helped along no doubt by the internet, and the ease of communication spaning the entire nation. Disgruntled educated young people who did not have the american dream waiting on them once they played by the rules, got an education, to find that the employment situation was in disorder and opportunities non existent. Some that were in fields that would have guaranteed a job, found that corporations were off shoring and then bringing in cheaper foreign labor to do some of those jobs the young men and women had planned on earning a living from.

          OWS sees that money and influence of a few is greater today than in recent history, and the emphasis is no longer on bring up middle america, but rather concentrating on building up the wealth of the few. There is anger here, and they have a right to their anger.

          From this anger, this dissatisfaction, the movment arose, with real anarchists and real deal communism and real deal socialism yelling louder than most of the OWS crowd. You have people in the crowd that are their for other reasons than seeking change. You have folks, young folks looking to create some mischief, even criminal acts. Where you have horders of young people, you have criminals flocking to them, to do what criminals do. So many young draws the drug pushers, and the violence that is inherit in the sale of drugs.

          If the jobless rates get better, sooner rather than later, this movement will fade off. If the high jobless rates, which are really closer to 18 per cent, if truth be told, linger on and on for years, this OWS movement will grow, as average people join in. I suspect it will get a leader, become a bit more organized, and perhaps even change its name. It seems to be running on emotion alone since day one to me. Hopefully an intelligent, well spoken leader will arise from the manure that offers substinence for some real change in this wealth equity issue.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

            Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
            no sorry, not the same. I'm all for addressing inequity and economic justice, you are off base there. I'm not supporting a world revolution. I support responsible fiscal change and support of the individual without their being team-rolled by the state.



            We have a virtually identical portion of poor people now as we did when the war on poverty started. We have the best poverty money can buy. Poverty has won.
            I am concerned about the newly poor. The folks who used to earn their way.

            There will always be the poor. For various reasons. We should accept a particular level as the norm, and provide social safety nets to keep em from dying from starvation or exposure, or an untreated simple illness that kills.

            I saw so many people move from poverty to lower middle class. There was an opportunity to do that when we made what we consumed. America is filled with these sorts of people today. They are not poor by choice. And these people have a hard time even getting on a safety net. Then you have the generational poor, which in many cases involves people who are inferiour mentally. These people will always be poor. The best we can do is to see their life as something society will save, by social safety nets.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

              Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
              I am concerned about the newly poor. The folks who used to earn their way.

              There will always be the poor. For various reasons. We should accept a particular level as the norm, and provide social safety nets to keep em from dying from starvation or exposure, or an untreated simple illness that kills.

              I saw so many people move from poverty to lower middle class. There was an opportunity to do that when we made what we consumed. America is filled with these sorts of people today. They are not poor by choice. And these people have a hard time even getting on a safety net. Then you have the generational poor, which in many cases involves people who are inferiour mentally. These people will always be poor. The best we can do is to see their life as something society will save, by social safety nets.
              The narrative that Republicans came into office and shipped a thriving domestic industry overseas all in one night to appease greedy billionaires that you continuously spam this forum with might be a big hit at Daily Kos or Newsvine but it's a load of shit and completely fictitious. Manufacturing jobs started leaving this country decades ago when nations like China, Korea, etc. became more industrialized and shipping costs dropped like a rock.

              The odds of winning the lottery or being discovered and signed to a multi-zillion dollar modeling contract are about the same as this point ever getting through to you - which is to say very, very poor. The overwhelming majority of us are where we are because of the choices we made. Those people who refused to re-tool after the industry left this country might not want to be poor but they also didn't bother going out and doing the things needed to be not poor. It is most certainly your fault if you are poor because you haven't bothered to learn a new trade in the decades since yours became obsolete. As I said that point is never getting through to you though.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

                Originally posted by Wagner View Post
                The narrative that Republicans came into office and shipped a thriving domestic industry overseas all in one night to appease greedy billionaires that you continuously spam this forum with might be a big hit at Daily Kos or Newsvine but it's a load of shit and completely fictitious. Manufacturing jobs started leaving this country decades ago when nations like China, Korea, etc. became more industrialized and shipping costs dropped like a rock.

                The odds of winning the lottery or being discovered and signed to a multi-zillion dollar modeling contract are about the same as this point ever getting through to you - which is to say very, very poor. The overwhelming majority of us are where we are because of the choices we made. Those people who refused to re-tool after the industry left this country might not want to be poor but they also didn't bother going out and doing the things needed to be not poor. It is most certainly your fault if you are poor because you haven't bothered to learn a new trade in the decades since yours became obsolete. As I said that point is never getting through to you though.
                Maybe the narrative that Republicans shipped a thriving domestic industry overseas overnight is a strawman.
                What happened is that after China got most favored nation status and a trade agreement, they increased their exports to the US faster than anticipated, and the GOP did nothing to address this.
                Which is why manufacturing fell so quickly during the Bush Administration, because the GOP with the White House, the Senate and the House, did nothing to address the rapidly growing trade imbalance with China.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

                  Originally posted by goober View Post
                  Maybe the narrative that Republicans shipped a thriving domestic industry overseas overnight is a strawman.
                  What happened is that after China got most favored nation status and a trade agreement, they increased their exports to the US faster than anticipated, and the GOP did nothing to address this.
                  Which is why manufacturing fell so quickly during the Bush Administration, because the GOP with the White House, the Senate and the House, did nothing to address the rapidly growing trade imbalance with China.
                  The trade ratio with china has been decreasing since 2005. It still sucks but China is hardly the only place kicking our butts.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

                    Originally posted by goober View Post
                    Maybe the narrative that Republicans shipped a thriving domestic industry overseas overnight is a strawman.
                    What happened is that after China got most favored nation status and a trade agreement, they increased their exports to the US faster than anticipated, and the GOP did nothing to address this.
                    Which is why manufacturing fell so quickly during the Bush Administration, because the GOP with the White House, the Senate and the House, did nothing to address the rapidly growing trade imbalance with China.
                    Loss of manufacturing jobs, the trade deficit with China, and recognition of the nation as a favored nation all began at very different times and predate the Bush Administration but then again I guess it wouldn't be a goober response if you didn't misrepresent economic events to some how blame the Bush Administration, would it?

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

                      Originally posted by Wagner View Post
                      Loss of manufacturing jobs, the trade deficit with China, and recognition of the nation as a favored nation all began at very different times and predate the Bush Administration but then again I guess it wouldn't be a goober response if you didn't misrepresent economic events to some how blame the Bush Administration, would it?
                      During the Clinton Administration the country added 22 million jobs, three million in manufacturing.
                      During the Bush Administraion the country added ZERO net new private sector jobs, and lost millions of manufacturing jobs (offset by the surge in food service jobs).
                      When do you think action was called for?
                      When was the issue of such gravity that a response would be expected?

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

                        Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                        The trade ratio with china has been decreasing since 2005. It still sucks but China is hardly the only place kicking our butts.
                        No, we have other nations with a multitude of poor folks who will work for pennies on the dollar, but china is a big player in this. Go to any store that sells consumer goods, put on your glasses and just look at the place of origin. I have a hard time finding anything without china on it. One thing that americans buy and have bought since the rebound from ww2 is consumer goods.

                        I heard some idiot on FNC actually say that america still manufacturers consumer goods, and the examples he gave were two. Cars and washing machines. He picked about the only two things still made here in consumer goods, but hell I heard maytag moved their factory to mexico or some other place. Perhaps we still make ONE washing machine here, but those days are numbered, because the trend is for more and more manufactured goods to move to cheap foreign labor so they can take advantage of poverty. This defines the capitalism that the pubs worked hard to do. We moved from making our own consumer goods to poor people making them, and we did this for ONE REASON. The rich could not max out their profits unless they used poor people who would work for next to nothing. So, they worked with the pubs and got free trade that started the ball rolling.

                        Free trade, special trade agreements were done for only one reason. To help the rich, the special interests who's greed was not being placated enough here in america where they were being used to create and substain the middle. You can come up with other reasons, invent them, but at the heart of this new economy is GREED of the few. And our politicians who did this for em, because they would get more money to keep their own personal power, and their party power. And the pubs got tired of working people being in the middle class,when in their opinion these people did not deserve it, AND it did not allow the rich to get as rich as they thought they should be. When greed writes policy, the non rich always get the short end of the stick.

                        But the cons think greed plays no role in economic and trade policy. They think greed is no more than a concept that affects nothing on a national level. But few pubs have any self knowledge, something that has been seen as essential for justice, equity, and making for decent, non destructive human beings. They are FOR morality, and would even force it upon others, they just don't see greed as immorality, in fact, many see it as constructive, which is opposed to every world's religion's take on the evilness it perpetrates.

                        Yet nothing more than something simple has put this nation in dire straits, and that simple thing is as old as mankind, and the very thing that religion has preached against and taught against for thousands of years. Greed and the hoarding of wealth by a few is the desired model for society to live by. They call it free enterprise, capitalism, and then place that economic model in as much importance as their religion. In fact, many have corrupted their religion in order to justify greed.

                        What has been done to the american people was driven by the greed of the few, who then try to convince the ignorant that this is progress, economic progress, and that it is the best thing since sliced bread. If you look at the current economic conditions for the average guy, this would be quickly seen as a cruel joke. And, more than that, it would be seen by a clear mind as just another way to send the income and wealth to the top. There are always new ways, and old ways that have been tweaked to once again do what the monopolies, the robber barons the Gilded Age did. We just change the name for the tools.

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                        • Re: OWS Violence in Oakland

                          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                          No, we have other nations with a multitude of poor folks who will work for pennies on the dollar, but china is a big player in this. ....
                          Let me know where I said it wasn't a problem. I also don't recall any Chinese trade provocateurs egging on the OWS crowd in Oakland.

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