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Socialism - Eventually You Run Out of Other People's Money

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  • Socialism - Eventually You Run Out of Other People's Money

    D.C. Politicians Have Promised Seniors Trillions in Unpaid Benefits

    The Big Fact is that Medicare, as currently constituted, is piling up enormous financial burdens for current and future workers. The Medicare Actuary says that taxpayers now face a Medicare unfunded liability ranging from $27.9 to $36.8 trillion. In plain English, this means that over the next seventy-five years (the so-called long-term actuarial window), Washington politicians have promised seniors tens of trillions of dollars of Medicare benefits that are not paid for. In other words, theyre running up a huge debt.
    http://dailysignal.com/2015/08/01/d-...paid-benefits/

    Social Security and Medicare, two of FDR's defining accomplishments are going broke. Who would have thought it?

  • #2
    Having good public services is possible as has been shown in countries like Germany and the Scandanavian region it just takes decent organization. One of the reasons it doesn't work in the US is you have one party who try to do everything they can to make sure it doesn't work as they are opposed to the idea and then moan when the problems they cause mean public services like medicare run into problems.

    ?


    • #3
      Thats the next sevetny five years? Talk about stretching things to make a argument ad virtually meainigless giventhe nature of government and the economy
      . It's roubghly 455 billion a year to take care ofthe health of citizens. Under $1500.00 a year

      ?


      • #4
        Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
        Having good public services is possible as has been shown in countries like Germany and the Scandanavian region it just takes decent organization. One of the reasons it doesn't work in the US is you have one party who try to do everything they can to make sure it doesn't work as they are opposed to the idea and then moan when the problems they cause mean public services like medicare run into problems.
        These guys ignore the success of mixed models and demand purity. We can see where our current model of capitalism led, the withering away of our middle, more people in poverty, as it sent far too much of the income pie to the top dogs. But they do not see that as a failure. They see that as good. Then they blame it on everyone but the culprits who bought a new structure of capitalism to only enrich themselves dismantling FDR's model that benefitted all who would work, a more sane sharing of an income pie.

        Pure socialism as practiced with dictators running the show, with their own group of elites has not worked. But neither has this current form of neoliberal capitalism. These guys will always point out the failures of dictator socialism, but will never recognize the failures of neoliberal oligarchy capitalism. They blind themselves because their ideology will not allow objectivity.

        Of course you never hear them blast the Nordic mixed models, for they could not do so and retain their purity. So they repeat that mantra from Thatcher, who then bought into globalization with Reagan, and we sent our job creation engines to cheap labor, taking away our ability to create living wage jobs here. But the mantra goes on, as their way is destroying America, which is the absurdity here.

        Mixed models do not run out of other people's money. It serves all the people instead of a few at the top. Neoliberals ignore it. For it is pure capitalism which always sends the income to the top.

        ?


        • #5
          mc3z4k.jpg

          Got a good answer for this?

          ?


          • #6
            Ok then how about you only live by using the things you built or grew yourself and see how you get.

            ?


            • #7
              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]n514263[/ATTACH]

              Got a good answer for this?
              It is whatever the society sets the tax rate at, I suppose. Of course. some people keep their profits offshore so they weasel out of it, and bought the tax code writers in order to do that.

              But your question is sometimes asked of owners of a business too. And the question then assumes that the owner made all of the business income just by his lonesome. Some do of course, those that do not have employees, but few people have ever built up their wealth all by their lonesome. The ones who have built their own wealth up, while paying wages insufficient for their workers to live on in a decent society would be jailed for abuse. Or, we would require all employers to pay a min living wage, so taxpayers do not have to subsidize his creation of personal wealth.

              I still remember times where the local owned businesses were decent human beings and paid their employees a living wage. For they understood that people that work are doing that in order to make enough to survive on, and have some disposable income left after meeting survival expenses. But you didn't see these owners living in status symbol, too large homes, just to impress those who did not own one. They lived in modest homes, sized for what they needed, and paid their employees enough to thrive on. That is not the paradigm today, is it? Today, as long as you can get those status symbols, that tell the less fortunate that by god you made it, you will even feel guilt free about not paying your own employees a living wage.

              I know a man here, who owns a big construction company, and who has always paid his own workers very well, and lives in the same 3 bedroom brick home he built back in the 60s. You would not know he was the owner just by looking at what he presents to the world. In his 80s today, and this is what I remember, this kind of businessman when I was growing up here in the south. Then I know another much younger man who has a construction company, works illegals with a few white foremens, and lives in a mulit million dollar home, with all of the bells and whistles, and presents himself to the world like he is a very wealthy man. This is what is wrong with people today, wanting wealth and it matter not how they get it. And people want to copy his way. Conservatives admire such men, right? We used to care how men made their money, today, it really doesn't matter, as long as you make it. But that is the nature of mammon, I reckon, and a loss of morals, as they try to claim when it comes to making money, that this should be amoral. It was not always the case though. I remember different times.

              ?


              • #8
                Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                It is whatever the society sets the tax rate at, I suppose. Of course. some people keep their profits offshore so they weasel out of it, and bought the tax code writers in order to do that.

                But your question is sometimes asked of owners of a business too. And the question then assumes that the owner made all of the business income just by his lonesome. Some do of course, those that do not have employees, but few people have ever built up their wealth all by their lonesome. The ones who have built their own wealth up, while paying wages insufficient for their workers to live on in a decent society would be jailed for abuse. Or, we would require all employers to pay a min living wage, so taxpayers do not have to subsidize his creation of personal wealth.

                I still remember times where the local owned businesses were decent human beings and paid their employees a living wage. For they understood that people that work are doing that in order to make enough to survive on, and have some disposable income left after meeting survival expenses. But you didn't see these owners living in status symbol, too large homes, just to impress those who did not own one. They lived in modest homes, sized for what they needed, and paid their employees enough to thrive on. That is not the paradigm today, is it? Today, as long as you can get those status symbols, that tell the less fortunate that by god you made it, you will even feel guilt free about not paying your own employees a living wage.

                I know a man here, who owns a big construction company, and who has always paid his own workers very well, and lives in the same 3 bedroom brick home he built back in the 60s. You would not know he was the owner just by looking at what he presents to the world. In his 80s today, and this is what I remember, this kind of businessman when I was growing up here in the south. Then I know another much younger man who has a construction company, works illegals with a few white foremens, and lives in a mulit million dollar home, with all of the bells and whistles, and presents himself to the world like he is a very wealthy man. This is what is wrong with people today, wanting wealth and it matter not how they get it. And people want to copy his way. Conservatives admire such men, right? We used to care how men made their money, today, it really doesn't matter, as long as you make it. But that is the nature of mammon, I reckon, and a loss of morals, as they try to claim when it comes to making money, that this should be amoral. It was not always the case though. I remember different times.

                You love to claim that Conservatives are the greedy ones with no morals, yet it is Conservatives like me who spend every extra penny I have helping my neighbors. The wealthiest people in our country, for the most part, are liberals. Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, the Kennedys, Bill and Hillary Clinton, movie stars, rock stars, football players, labor union leaders. It is liberals who don't want to "feel" bad about their poor neighbors. Liberals want the government to take care of the poor so they will be relieved of the responsibility. It is liberals who want to take money from somebody else to care for the poor so they won't have to do it themselves. It is liberals who do not want the personal responsibility of caring for the poor, they would rather slough that responsibility off on the government. Liberals believe they have fulfilled their responsibility to society when they advocate for tax increases on the rich.

                The chances are, your 80 year old Construction company owner is a Conservative and the younger one is a Liberal.

                ?


                • #9
                  Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                  You love to claim that Conservatives are the greedy ones with no morals, yet it is Conservatives like me who spend every extra penny I have helping my neighbors. The wealthiest people in our country, for the most part, are liberals. Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, the Kennedys, Bill and Hillary Clinton, movie stars, rock stars, football players, labor union leaders. It is liberals who don't want to "feel" bad about their poor neighbors. Liberals want the government to take care of the poor so they will be relieved of the responsibility. It is liberals who want to take money from somebody else to care for the poor so they won't have to do it themselves. It is liberals who do not want the personal responsibility of caring for the poor, they would rather slough that responsibility off on the government. Liberals believe they have fulfilled their responsibility to society when they advocate for tax increases on the rich.

                  The chances are, your 80 year old Construction company owner is a Conservative and the younger one is a Liberal.
                  I get my opinion of conservatives(neoliberals) from FOX and CTR. I listen to conservative talk radio every night, and have done it for a decade. Every night. Lars Larson is one of them. Then I listen to CTR during the day, our local conservatives in this state 2 of them that have 3 hour long radio programs. So, I get a dose of main stream conservatism constantly. On Ms. Talk radio here, there are no liberal programs, but if there were, I would not listen to them, for these are the loony tunes save the worms contingent and not Progressive as I know progressivism. They are nuts just like the right wing. I do not like either side.

                  And if you do not think conservatives do not blame the plight of the withering middle class and rise in poverty on the victims of neoliberalism, you do not know what main stream conservatism is. You may not be main stream, but from reading your post over the years, you sure smell like one.

                  You are wrong about the political affiliation of these two men. The old one is an old progressive just like me and the young one is a neoliberal conservative. Mr Conn the old one did not leave the democratic party and join the GOP during the great exodus of the times of civil rights as most southern democrats did. You do understand this turned the south RED I hope? JFK, LBJ and those nigga loving democrats is what cause the great exodus. You know it as well as I do. We both witnessed it happen.

                  ?


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                    I get my opinion of conservatives(neoliberals) from FOX and CTR. I listen to conservative talk radio every night, and have done it for a decade. Every night. Lars Larson is one of them. Then I listen to CTR during the day, our local conservatives in this state 2 of them that have 3 hour long radio programs. So, I get a dose of main stream conservatism constantly. On Ms. Talk radio here, there are no liberal programs, but if there were, I would not listen to them, for these are the loony tunes save the worms contingent and not Progressive as I know progressivism. They are nuts just like the right wing. I do not like either side.

                    And if you do not think conservatives do not blame the plight of the withering middle class and rise in poverty on the victims of neoliberalism, you do not know what main stream conservatism is. You may not be main stream, but from reading your post over the years, you sure smell like one.

                    You are wrong about the political affiliation of these two men. The old one is an old progressive just like me and the young one is a neoliberal conservative. Mr Conn the old one did not leave the democratic party and join the GOP during the great exodus of the times of civil rights as most southern democrats did. You do understand this turned the south RED I hope? JFK, LBJ and those nigga loving democrats is what cause the great exodus. You know it as well as I do. We both witnessed it happen.

                    You totally ignored my post that most of the wealthy scum you detest are liberals.

                    ?


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                      You totally ignored my post that most of the wealthy scum you detest are liberals.
                      So you only admire the wealthy conservative scum?

                      There are two kinds of wealthy people. Those that became wealthy as they paid middle class wages, and those who did not. I think the ones who did not are the scum. Since we saw more wealthy pay living wages under what FDR put into place, and less under what your boys with the help of the treasonous democrats put into place, dismantling the model in which all boats rose, that you would choose the dismantling makes you a treasonous person, to your own class. And all that the elites or ideologues have to utter is the world socialism, which cuts off thinking. If its not purity, pure capitalism with no speed bumps to keep most of the income from going to the top, you call it socialism. You do not care if such a capitalism only creates a sliver of a middle, and it takes a mixed model to achieve a large middle class. You do not care that pure capitalism always creates poverty, and there is no way to escape it, as long as its not you in poverty.

                      Now granted, making what we consume using our own people, employs the max number of citizens if you keep employers from HB! visas for cheap labor and illegal immigration for cheap labor, but even when we employed all of our own as possible, there was still not enough jobs to employ all people. That is built into capitalism in the real world, and you will not accept it. You would rather blame the jobless instead of the system itself. This does not get rid of the fact that some people would not work in a pie factory, as a pie taster. But it does reveal that all of the unemployed are not this group of lazy people. But seeing the fact of this is anti right wing ideology. So you will not admit it, or see it, even if its fact. Such ideological beliefs insures problems are not solved. For they are not grounded in reality in the first place.

                      ?


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                        So you only admire the wealthy conservative scum?

                        There are two kinds of wealthy people. Those that became wealthy as they paid middle class wages, and those who did not. I think the ones who did not are the scum. Since we saw more wealthy pay living wages under what FDR put into place, and less under what your boys with the help of the treasonous democrats put into place, dismantling the model in which all boats rose, that you would choose the dismantling makes you a treasonous person, to your own class. And all that the elites or ideologues have to utter is the world socialism, which cuts off thinking. If its not purity, pure capitalism with no speed bumps to keep most of the income from going to the top, you call it socialism. You do not care if such a capitalism only creates a sliver of a middle, and it takes a mixed model to achieve a large middle class. You do not care that pure capitalism always creates poverty, and there is no way to escape it, as long as its not you in poverty.

                        Now granted, making what we consume using our own people, employs the max number of citizens if you keep employers from HB! visas for cheap labor and illegal immigration for cheap labor, but even when we employed all of our own as possible, there was still not enough jobs to employ all people. That is built into capitalism in the real world, and you will not accept it. You would rather blame the jobless instead of the system itself. This does not get rid of the fact that some people would not work in a pie factory, as a pie taster. But it does reveal that all of the unemployed are not this group of lazy people. But seeing the fact of this is anti right wing ideology. So you will not admit it, or see it, even if its fact. Such ideological beliefs insures problems are not solved. For they are not grounded in reality in the first place.

                        Great reiteration of what you have said here a million times but it completely ignores the fact that those rich people you hate are Liberals, not Conservatives.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                          Great reiteration of what you have said here a million times but it completely ignores the fact that those rich people you hate are Liberals, not Conservatives.
                          First off, I do not actually hate the scum. I just see them for what they are, greedy scum. Second, you are dead on in regards to my reiteration of hard facts. But what is bothersome to me, is that far too many people, for ideological reasons exclusively, will not admit to that mathematical certainty that I have ranted about since day one here on this board. For if one had to admit it, and if the person admitting it was a democrat or republican, they could not in good conscience support a corporate democrat or a corporate republican, unless they were one of the elites who own these two parties.

                          In so far as rich people, dems and repubs, the rich dems are the ones who are owning the democratic party, and bribe them to allow them to destroy this nation's economy which is the entity that employs people and keeps them off of welfare. I actually detest the fact that we have so many americans having to take welfare out of desperation, and a desperation created by ignoring that mathematical certainty that I rant about.. For unless that is fixed, nothing else when it comes to talk of jobs means a damned thing. And both corporate owned parties refuse to even admit this mathematical certainty I speak of, habitually. It is the 800 pound ape sitting in the corner, which both parties and even most of their voters act as if it doesn't exist, and that creates the rants, oldman. I can compare it to a person banging a hammer against his head, while complaining he has a god awful headache that he cannot get rid of. So a sane person tells him to stop hitting his head with a hammer, and he ignores it, while continuing to talk about his head hurting so greatly. But when someone, tells him to put a pillow between his head and the hammer, or to take a narcotic to stop the pain, while not addressing the certainty of what is causing the headache, as he and others think they have found the solution, with the pillow or the drug, then that makes a man rant. LOL.

                          I do not hate, but I greatly detest, the top dogs, be they from either party, who are being driven by simple greed to destroy the country of my birth. For when a society, a gov't, puts maxing out profits above the welfare of the People, then you have not only a broken system, but an immoral one, as well as a deeply corrupt one. And that is the one thing that deserves to be ranted about, for if not addressed to fix it, America will implode internally and history backs this up. But that is the part of history that neither party is aware of. And so, the rants come from my country and her people suffering from the devastation of incoherence on the part of corporations, wall street, and politicians owned by this great and evil force. And the rants are only coming from the Progressives, the genuine ones, and then some of the non neoliberal Right.

                          It is just a shame, and shows the lack of intelligence of the American voter, that they were too stupid to understand that what Perot tried to tell us was the truth, the fact of the matter. Have you ever one heard the media wagging their finger at the population, saying,, Perot was absolutely right when he talked about that giant sucking sound? That is has never been said, not once, should show everyone that having 5 or 6 huge corporations controlling information, on behalf of the oligarchs who own these outlets, and on the behalf of both political parties that crawled into bed with these men who would be oligarchs, is evidence, more of it, that the Princeton Study was right about what has happened to our republic. And so few americans see it, or just do not care on twit about it. Just so they can keep getting their booze, and be entertained by the DC theater, and their shoot em up, bloody, carnage filled video games.

                          But at least today, the support of trump and sanders is evidence that americans are finally coming out of their propaganda induced stupor, and will not buy into the propagandized bullshit, coming from both parties. so that it takes a democratic socialist saying things that the majority in American actually agree with him on. Both sanders and trump know free trade is destroying our middle class and that open borders is being used to pull down wages and take American jobs the same way offshoring our jobs is doing.

                          So as that mathematical certainty finally works its way into American consciousness, we will eventually see the change that I want, and sanders wants to at least get its start. The corporate democratic party is getting so nervous that they want Biden to be their savior, if Clinton starts to suffer from her corrupt habits. Even as sanders is little more than an FDR progressive, who like FDR wants to save capitalism again, by taking away the control of our economy from the greed driven elites.

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                          • #14
                            What's the Matter with California?

                            Guess which state has the highest poverty rate in the country? Not Mississippi, New Mexico, or West Virginia, but California, where nearly one out of five residents is poor. Thats according to the Census Bureaus Supplemental Poverty Measure, which factors in the cost of housing, food, utilities and clothing, and which includes noncash government assistance as a form of income...

                            The progressives who control every aspect of the state's government are not necessarily stupid people, but they are malign. They understand that increasing welfare spending only encourages the arrival of more recipients on whom to spend it, and the high likelihood that those new constituents will vote Democrat as soon as they are able, legally or otherwise. Already, some 55 percent of "immigrants" receive means-tested benefits, while only 30 percent of native Californians do so.
                            https://pjmedia.com/trending/whats-matter-california/

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                            • #15
                              Socialism makes misery, if you don't know this please educate yourself.

                              Stupidity is out in force... More idiots wanting to sell us on the misery of socialism. They sell it too us by using our envy and anger that "other people have more" than I do ...

                              "How much misery do we want to get from our envy ?" We must ask ourselves.

                              Have a look at what playing with socialism has done for California

                              --------------------------------------------------------

                              Columnist Elizabeth Bruenig suggested Tuesday in The Washington Post that, Its time to give socialism a try.

                              Not to be confused for a totalitarian nostalgist, I would support a kind of socialism that would be democratic and aimed primarily at decommodifying labor, reducing the vast inequality brought about by capitalism, and breaking capitals stranglehold over politics and culture, she wrote.

                              Her piece appears to be based on the fundamental misconception that people in a capitalist society struggle to obtain their own individual piece of the economic pie.

                              While there may be but one economic pie in a socialist society, in capitalism, each person is given the freedom to create his own pie.

                              Turn of the century examples include Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, and Morgan the giants who built America. But success stories arent limited to that era, where ruthlessness and cutthroat business practices were the norm.

                              Despite excessive taxation and crippling regulations, modern-day examples of American entrepreneurs abound.

                              Bill Gates envisioned a computer in every home and brought us Microsoft.

                              Steve Jobs came up with a better idea and created Apple.

                              Jeff Bezos believed books, and later other items, could be better sold online and founded Amazon.

                              And its not just the risk-takers who benefit ordinary wage earners do also in the form of higher salaries and increased standards of living.

                              The single greatest story of human achievement of the past 2,000 years is the dramatic rise in living standards of the past 200 years, according to the American Enterprise Institute, driven by innovative, entrepreneurial capitalism. Free enterprise. Economic freedom.

                              Although Bruenig may bemoan the very notion of commodifying labor, like it or not, labor has always been a commodity.

                              Once that truth is accepted, one will realize that wage-earners can create and enlarge their own economic pies through experience, education, training, and work-ethic.

                              Wall Street character Gordon Gekko famously said in the 1987 film that greed, for lack of a better word, is good.

                              Although greed may not be good or even attractive in a moral sense, any government that denies its existence does so at its own peril.

                              Witness California, which was considered an American Utopia during the 1960s, owing in large part to its own brand of socialism a Robin Hood-like take from the rich to give to the poor mentality.

                              The Golden States goals sound much like what The Washington Post columnist had in mind when she wrote ... capitalism seems to be at odds with the harmonious, peaceful, stable liberalism of midcentury dreams.

                              Sure, Californians pay excessive income, property and gasoline taxes, but it politicians argue that the benefits more than made up for them. Californians enjoyed low or no college tuition costs and liberal social service programs.

                              Life was good because everyone cared.


                              But instead of becoming an American Utopia, California achieved the worst quality of life of the 50 states, according to a U.S. News study.

                              Just within the last six years, homelessness skyrocketed 75 percent, and many lucky enough to have housing continue to struggle. One-third of Los Angeles renters pay half or more of their income on rent, according to a 2017 Harvard University report.

                              Income inequality, the very evil socialism is supposed to address, also spiked in California. Writing in a Newsweek opinion piece, Victor Davis Hanson observed that in the Never-Never Land of Apple, Facebook, Google, Hollywood and the wine country, millions live in an idyllic paradise, whereas those working the states interior mines, forests, oil and gas fields, and farms are strangled by state regulators.

                              The rules are typically codified by those coastal utopians who have little idea where the gas for their imported cars comes from, or how the redwood is cut for their decks, or who grows the ingredients for their Mediterranean lunches of arugula, olive oil, and pasta.

                              Socialism is nothing new in America. Upon their arrival in the New World, the Pilgrims reached the brink of extermination as a result dabbling in it. When an economy is based upon From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, human nature dictates that each will need more than they produce.

                              Then they switched to a free market system, where everyone was given a plot of land and told they could keep whatever they produced.

                              "This had very good success, for it made all hands very industrious," Governor William Bradford reported. For example, "much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been" and production increased. "Women," for example, "went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to set corn."

                              In response to then-candidate Donald Trumps campaign slogan, Make America Great Again, Hillary Clinton, his Democratic opponent, opined, America is already great.

                              Apart from the fact that America has unquestionably declined in the last half-century, her response illustrates the difference between a socialist and a capitalist.

                              A socialist would say, leave it alone its fine the way it is.

                              A capitalist would say, I can do it better.


                              https://www.newsmax.com/michaeldorst.../07/id/847409/

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