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An election to end all elections - emails, benghazi, and dictators oh my!

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  • An election to end all elections - emails, benghazi, and dictators oh my!

    I'm not exactly a Hillary Clinton diehard. Mostly because I wasn't a Bill Clinton diehard and I think the whole United States becoming the corporate military empire that it is today accelerated in the 90s. But I also recognise that the USG is a large organisation with separation of powers and more moving parts than a colony of centipedes. So there it is. I mean I'll still support most of what she'll likely be proposing, and obviously support her over Trump, but then again I'd support a turnip over Trump. I just can't wrap my head around the whole email or Benghazi controversies, or the overall level of vitriol that makes preventing terrorists from buying guns a hard sell. Want some Hillary Clinton controversies, look at the Clinton Foundation, ties to Wall Street, elitism, and the push for the use of military force abroad. Then again those sorts of controversies are rampant in the USG, probably more so than anyone realises. Sigh.

    But I'm bored and feel like speaking truth to a bunch of uber conservative sycophants who can't get their own house in order so they blame liberals. Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, even Los Angeles and San Diego are all running relatively smoothly. Texas does ok, although 15-20% of it's GSP is from oil, not to mention the government contracts, but I can't hate, good on 'em. However 8 of the poorest 8 states are solid Red States. 7 of the 10 states with the highest percentage of people on food stamps and welfare are Red States. Nevermind, it's all because of taxes and black people. Actually, minorities make up a larger percentage of many of the best performing Blue States. Yes I'm intellectual enough to admit that black people are more likely to be on government assistance than white people nationally, but it's not a statistical blowout or anything. Places like Boston, Seattle, and elsewhere with large black populations do just fine. New York and Chicago also do relatively alright, but could do better. Are there any conservatives willing to say their communities could do better? Or is it all about putting more evil pot smokers in jail and giving passes to violent white people who stand their ground? Black people just need to stop informing police they have a weapon on them and are legally licensed to carry. The map of unwed childbirths is interesting too in that it appears it occurs more in the south. 10 of 10 states with the highest divorce rates are solid Red States including WV, OK, ID, WY, and not surprisingly NV. MA has the lowest, (other than DC), followed by GA, and IL. Isn't learning fun?


    But I digress, as I'm prone to do... Here's my meat and two vegetables... 1st up - emails...

    Colin Powell and aides to Condoleezza Rice had private email accounts which contained classified information. The server issue is a non-starter both legally and technically. In fact, gwb43.com was an email server owned and operated by the RNC during the Bush years and was used extensively for government purposes. Given that an estimated 22 million emails have gone missing from that server, what do you think the odds are that some of those emails contained classified information?

    Hillary should have known better, email was new? That's the classic one I love. Email was around in the early 90's, by the Bush years it was basically the network we use today.

    The Bush Whitehouse failed to release emails pertaining to no-bid contracts, firings of US attorneys, and an actual, no holds barred, leak of a covert CIA agents identity. No one was ever found guilty for the leak. Scooter Libby was found guilty on trumped up charges in my opinion, probably to protect someone. And Bush later commuted his sentence because, you know, Republican values and stuff. Disclosing the identity of a CIA officer, eh no big deal, but using a private email for your government business? Suddenly Republicans start chanting like Khrushchev at the UN.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_W..._investigation


    As a former government employee with Secret clearance I can say that a) everything from a diplomats shopping list to the flight schedule gets classified. I do feel comfortable saying that, even on this site. It's the internet, no one cares. The NSA even got hacked. It's routine for some stuff to end up on private email communications, the trick is figuring out the objective of a would be hacker. And b) it's quite common to use private email accounts for personal business, both in the private sector and public sector.

    33% of government officials surveyed found that they use personal email for government business at least sometimes.
    http://www.govexec.com/insights/stat...cation/106737/

    I'm not sure what dubious careers people here have had but, you know those email chains where you cc a bulk email, which gets auto-forwarded to another bulk email, then one persons name on the list has a new position so their emails get auto-forwarded, then your boss says forward me that email so they can forward it, then a few months later the email gets forwarded back to you to ask for a resolution on the issue you sent the original email about? Yeah, those emails are what some top elected officials are now spending their precious twilight years investigating rather than balancing the budget, fixing immigration, or cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. Good on em. A good example of what theyre probably after is this little gem

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ton-email.html


    An email chain regarding Saudi and UAE troops being sent in to prevent an Arab Spring uprising in Bahrain was found on Clinton's server. Because you know, Democracy protests In Syria and Libya totally a good thing, lets give them tens of millions of dollars. Democracy protests in Egypt and Bahrain, shhh, let our dictator allies crush them. This email chain was previously said to be classified because you know, if Russia or Al Qaeda found out about any of the ways the US was helping to crush a pro-Democracy protest they might use it for evil.


    So Bush administration officials use private email for government purposes and intentionally disclose classified information, no big deal. Countless other government officials do the same thing. Im not giving anyone on either side a pass either. There are no sides as far as Im concerned, only pro-empire and anti-empire tendencies. But this whole email thing is just evidence of a broken system where over-classification runs amok and executive privilege allows the government to hide what its doing, unless the Union party finds out the Confederate party took billions from lobbyists and then used tax payer money to give them government contracts. Because thats totally a partisan issue, right?


    2nd up - Benghazi... Poor lady at the convention; can't say anything bad about her. But the notion that Clinton was responsible is like blaming the gun manufacturer for a mass shooting. Think about it. Clinton is at the top of an agency with tens of thousands of employees and a budget in the tens of billions. No request for more security ever made it to her desk.
    http://www.factcheck.org/2015/10/ben...ing-whats-new/

    Furthermore, Republicans did indeed vote to cut funding to embassy security, although to be fair overall embassy security funding had been on the rise in recent years.
    https://thinkprogress.org/gop-rep-i-...8ea#.khzyvre10

    And to be even more fair, this wasn't an embassy, it was a diplomatic compound in an area of Libya the US probably shouldn't have been in. Reinforcements in fact arrived from the CIA annex about 2 hours after the fighting began and re-secured the compound, so no quick reaction force from Spain would have made a difference in that regard. The mortar attack on the CIA compound began about 2 hours after the initial attack so it's unlikely any air support would have arrived on scene in time to deter it. The State Department was asked to secure the approval of the Libyan government for use of various military assets, with the closing please advise how you wish to convey that approval. The military should never have had to ask permission in my opinion, but again thats a chain of command cluster-fuck that can and has happened under both parties.
    http://therightscoop.com/new-email-s...-panetta-lied/

    Furthermore, reinforcements were in fact dispatched from Tripoli within hours of the initial attack but could not have made it to Benghazi to prevent the mortar attack. Given that Tripoli was vulnerable itself, some forces were ordered to remain in place, this is where the stand down rumour started, but it is false, they were ordered to remain in place to protect Tripoli, a decision made by the Rear Admiral Losey. The man in charge of the military assets in Tripoli Lt Col Gibson later said he agreed with that decision, although at the time he wanted to send a larger team. Anyway, the reinforcements from Tripoli combined with Libyan "militia" helped evacuate 32 remaining Americans less than 24 hours after the attack.
    http://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/boehner-and-benghazi/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack


    Nowhere in that chain of events did Hillary Clinton or the State Department do anything it shouldn't have or have an opportunity to do anything more. And nowhere prior to the events could Hillary Clinton have done anything more. Possibly Hillary or the State Department could have secured the permission of the Libyan government, in the middle of the night local time, but it would have been a long shot to get that approval, only air support would have made a difference and would not have arrived in time to deter the mortar attack, nevermind the fact the military really shouldn't have had to ask for any permission. And again reinforcements did arrive on scene and re-secured the compound a little more than 2 hours after the initial attack began. A hundred more security guards would not have deterred the initial attack or the mortar attack, only air support would have deterred the mortar attack in my opinion, but I don't believe any assets would have been able to make it to the scene in time. But it’s alright; the uber conservative sycophants will continue to drink their own kool-aide without regards to facts. If the Bible or Fox News told them to jump off a bridge they’d probably do it.

    Did Hillary and also Obama repeat that the anti-Muslim video helped inspire the attack, yes. In fact that situation is a bit murky, and who knows could end up classified if enough media start reporting on it. What group was it that claimed responsibility for the attack? Normally organised attacks are conducted by a terrorist group. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? No one? Ok, Ill tell you. Ansar Al Sharia. At the time they were providing security for a local hospital in Benghazi, among other duties. They also weren't designated a terrorist organisation by the US and UK until 2014. Probably just another group of conservative Muslims receiving US money and weapons who turned on us, possibly in reaction to a video, or you know, the bombing of their region by US and company for the past 2-3 generations.

    And while were on that topic Bush awesome segue, I know. Here's the meat... And I hate to blame Bush for everything thats gone wrong so far in the 21st century, Ill just leave it at the 4.5 million dead Muslims. During the Bush administration Im sure non-uber conservative sycophants would be up in arms about deaths of US personnel overseas despite warnings. What was the title of that presidential daily briefing again? No worries. Heres a short and incomplete list of attacks on US personnel, not counting the wars.

    3 May, 2003, man dressed in a Saudi Navy uniform penetrates a US base and kills an American before escaping.
    12 May 2003 - Riyadh Compound Bombings kill 35, including 9 Americans.
    15 Oct 2003 - Three American diplomats are killed by a roadside bomb targeting their convoy in Gaza. Palestine Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization has taken responsibility for the attack.
    18 June 2004 - Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr, civilian working in Saudi Arabia, kidnapped and beheaded; five other Americans die in attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2004.
    2 Mar, 2006 - Car bomb explodes outside Consulate in Pakistan killing a US diplomat (this consulate had been attacked numerous times previously)
    17 Sep, 2008 - A coordinated attack resulted in a 20-minute battle with security killing 11 Yeminis, 6 attackers, and 1 American.

    Eh you know what, if you're bored here are a few links, maybe someone can round out my list.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...di_Arabia#2004
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack...tic_facilities
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...mericans#2010s
    (that last one includes a few attacks by conservatives against liberals and minorities)


    But clearly Bush and his appointees weren't doing enough to protect Americans, right? God forbid they should lie about weapons of mass destruction. The WMD program that Iraq used to have was sponsored by the US, then at the time he used them we supported him, even after Iraqi planes attacked a US Navy vessel, and the vast majority of Americans wanted to continue with weapons inspections before resorting to all out war.

    But Benghazi, right. Terrible tragedy, but let's not worry about changing any rules of engagement or current embassy security, stuff happens. There was the Beirut bombing. The Khobar Tower bombing. The attack on US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The attack on the USS Cole. One big cluster-fuck. At least in the good old days the two parties didn't hiss and scratch at each other like two fat cats fighting over the same spigot of cream from corporate lobbyists while getting to the spigot by calling all the other fat cats nasty names.

    You're so worried about emails and Benghazi given all of the above? You think Trump doesn't have ties to corporate interests or foreign dictators? His campaign manager resigned after receiving beaucoup bucks from shady Russian government officials. One of Trumps principal investors (not to mention where his ties are made) is China. His ties make tremendous dish-washing rags by the way. Black communities in Blue States are doing ok, black communities, along with poor white communities across the Red States are driving key statistics down to third world country levels. Parts of Africa have higher standards of living than some Red States for Christs sake. Maybe this is the brave new world. Ignore political corruption, structural, and cultural problems in your own territory/party while simultaneously blaming the other party/territory. And when the other territory/party comes in and gives you government contracts AND welfare at a higher rate than they receive come up with some excuse as to why. I dont care, keep your guns unregistered, just please dont sell them on the black market to the blue territory. Dont register your cars and your historic places either, see how that works out for ya. Take care while your maternal mortality rates go up and Zika spreads because funding isn't made available because your leaders are busy trying to find where Hillary didn't cross a t or dot an i. Just dont blame Obama for gutting the military when his budget request was underfunded (and paid for with continuing resolutions) and a third of the F-35 budget (mostly un-appropriated at present) is set to cost more than a mission to Mars, the Shuttle Program, and the International Space Station, COMBINED.

    Don't blame Democratic Socialism for high poverty rates and low GDP growth when most of Europe, Japan, and Oceania all have lower poverty and far stronger middle classes. Don't blame immigrants because, with the exception of Japan, most of those countries have higher immigration rates than the US. Australias is off the chart higher. Don't blame anyone, just fix your own communities. Hope that the Supreme Court can come to an untied decision if team Trump decides the list of lawsuits hes involved in is too small and sues the swing states for the .01% of the vote that usually ends up recounted. Most of all make sure you give Hillary, achem, I mean the eventual president, a mandate to actually get stuff done. Just saying, CO, NH, VA and PA are polling safe Dem, OH, NC, FL, IA, are leaning Dem, and NV, AZ, and GA are just barely leaning red. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Bush the 1st, all got things done with regards to immigration, guns, and the budget. If you dont like the blue teams proposals, make your own. The last red team budget proposal I saw would leave millions starving and increase the deficit through lower taxes. Bush lowered taxes and increased spending and increased the debt by a larger percentage of the GDP, but somehow the Dems still get blamed for it. Maybe Im asking too much here. Just note that emails and a tragic attack are nothing in comparison to the structural and cultural problems being created every day in the United States. Stay thirsty my friends.
    Last edited by .3dontVoteParty; 08-23-2016, 02:05 AM.

  • #2
    You never Trumpers will have to take the blame when Hillary wins.

    ?


    • #3
      Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post
      I’'m not exactly a Hillary Clinton diehard. Mostly because I wasn'’t a Bill Clinton diehard and I think the whole United States becoming the corporate military empire that it is today accelerated in the 90’s. But I also recognise that the USG is a large organisation with separation of powers and more moving parts than a colony of centipedes. So there it is. I mean I'll still support most of what she'll likely be proposing, and obviously support her over Trump, but then again I'd support a turnip over Trump. I just can'’t wrap my head around the whole email or Benghazi controversies, or the overall level of vitriol that makes preventing terrorists from buying guns a hard sell. Want some Hillary Clinton controversies, look at the Clinton Foundation, ties to Wall Street, elitism, and the push for the use of military force abroad. Then again those sorts of controversies are rampant in the USG, probably more so than anyone realises. Sigh.

      But I’'m bored and feel like speaking truth to a bunch of uber conservative sycophants who can'’t get their own house in order so they blame liberals. Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Seattle, San Francisco, even Los Angeles and San Diego are all running relatively smoothly. Texas does ok, although 15-20% of it's GSP is from oil, not to mention the government contracts, but I can't hate, good on 'em. However 8 of the poorest 8 states are solid Red States. 7 of the 10 states with the highest percentage of people on food stamps and welfare are Red States. Nevermind, it'’s all because of taxes and black people. Actually, minorities make up a larger percentage of many of the best performing Blue States. Yes I’'m intellectual enough to admit that black people are more likely to be on government assistance than white people nationally, but it's not a statistical blowout or anything. Places like Boston, Seattle, and elsewhere with large black populations do just fine. New York and Chicago also do relatively alright, but could do better. Are there any conservatives willing to say their communities could do better? Or is it all about putting more evil pot smokers in jail and giving passes to violent white people who stand their ground? Black people just need to stop informing police they have a weapon on them and are legally licensed to carry. The map of unwed childbirths is interesting too in that it appears it occurs more in the south. 10 of 10 states with the highest divorce rates are solid Red States including WV, OK, ID, WY, and not surprisingly NV. MA has the lowest, (other than DC), followed by GA, and IL. Isn't learning fun?


      But I digress, as I'’m prone to do...… Here'’s my meat and two vegetables…... 1st up - emails…...

      Colin Powell and aides to Condoleezza Rice had private email accounts which contained classified information. The server issue is a non-starter both legally and technically. In fact, gwb43.com was an email server owned and operated by the RNC during the Bush years and was used extensively for government purposes. Given that an estimated 22 million emails have gone missing from that server, what do you think the odds are that some of those emails contained classified information?

      Hillary should have known better, email was new? That's the classic one I love. Email was around in the early 90's, by the Bush years it was basically the network we use today.

      The Bush Whitehouse failed to release emails pertaining to no-bid contracts, firings of US attorneys, and an actual, no holds barred, leak of a covert CIA agent’s identity. No one was ever found guilty for the leak. Scooter Libby was found guilty on trumped up charges in my opinion, probably to protect someone. And Bush later commuted his sentence because, you know, Republican values and stuff. Disclosing the identity of a CIA officer, eh no big deal, but using a private email for your government business? Suddenly Republicans start chanting like Khrushchev at the UN.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_W..._investigation


      As a former government employee with Secret clearance I can say that a) everything from a diplomat’s shopping list to the flight schedule gets classified. I do feel comfortable saying that, even on this site. It's the internet, no one cares. The NSA even got hacked. It'’s routine for some stuff to end up on private email communications, the trick is figuring out the objective of a would be hacker. And b) it's quite common to use private email accounts for personal business, both in the private sector and public sector.

      33% of government officials surveyed found that they use personal email for government business at least sometimes.
      http://www.govexec.com/insights/stat...cation/106737/

      I'’m not sure what dubious careers people here have had but, you know those email chains where you cc’ a bulk email, which gets auto-forwarded to another bulk email, then one person’s name on the list has a new position so their emails get auto-forwarded, then your boss says forward me that email so they can forward it, then a few months later the email gets forwarded back to you to ask for a resolution on the issue you sent the original email about? Yeah, those emails are what some top elected officials are now spending their precious twilight years investigating rather than balancing the budget, fixing immigration, or cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. Good on ‘em. A good example of what they’re probably after is this little gem…

      http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ton-email.html


      An email chain regarding Saudi and UAE troops being sent in to prevent an Arab Spring uprising in Bahrain was found on Clinton's server. Because you know, Democracy protests In Syria and Libya totally a good thing, let’s give them tens of millions of dollars. Democracy protests in Egypt and Bahrain, shhh, let our dictator allies crush them. This email chain was previously said to be classified because you know, if Russia or Al Qaeda found out about any of the ways the US was helping to crush a pro-Democracy protest they might use it for evil.


      So Bush administration officials use private email for government purposes and intentionally disclose classified information, no big deal. Countless other government officials do the same thing. I’m not giving anyone on either side a pass either. There are no sides as far as I’m concerned, only pro-empire and anti-empire tendencies. But this whole email thing is just evidence of a broken system where over-classification runs amok and executive privilege allows the government to hide what its doing, unless the Union party finds out the Confederate party took billions from lobbyists and then used tax payer money to give them government contracts. Because that’s totally a partisan issue, right?


      2nd up - Benghazi... Poor lady at the convention; can'’t say anything bad about her. But the notion that Clinton was responsible is like blaming the gun manufacturer for a mass shooting. Think about it. Clinton is at the top of an agency with tens of thousands of employees and a budget in the tens of billions. No request for more security ever made it to her desk.
      http://www.factcheck.org/2015/10/ben...ing-whats-new/

      Furthermore, Republicans did indeed vote to cut funding to embassy security, although to be fair overall embassy security funding had been on the rise in recent years.
      https://thinkprogress.org/gop-rep-i-...8ea#.khzyvre10

      And to be even more fair, this wasn'’t an embassy, it was a diplomatic compound in an area of Libya the US probably shouldn'’t have been in. Reinforcements in fact arrived from the CIA annex about 2 hours after the fighting began and re-secured the compound, so no quick reaction force from Spain would have made a difference in that regard. The mortar attack on the CIA compound began about 2 hours after the initial attack so it's unlikely any air support would have arrived on scene in time to deter it. The State Department was asked to secure the approval of the Libyan government for use of various military assets, with the closing please advise how you wish to convey that approval. The military should never have had to ask permission in my opinion, but again that’s a chain of command cluster-fuck that can and has happened under both parties.
      http://therightscoop.com/new-email-s...-panetta-lied/

      Furthermore, reinforcements were in fact dispatched from Tripoli within hours of the initial attack but could not have made it to Benghazi to prevent the mortar attack. Given that Tripoli was vulnerable itself, some forces were ordered to remain in place, this is where the stand down rumour started, but it is false, they were ordered to remain in place to protect Tripoli, a decision made by the Rear Admiral Losey. The man in charge of the military assets in Tripoli Lt Col Gibson later said he agreed with that decision, although at the time he wanted to send a larger team. Anyway, the reinforcements from Tripoli combined with Libyan "militia" helped evacuate 32 remaining Americans less than 24 hours after the attack.
      http://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/boehner-and-benghazi/
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack


      Nowhere in that chain of events did Hillary Clinton or the State Department do anything it shouldn'’t have or have an opportunity to do anything more. And nowhere prior to the events could Hillary Clinton have done anything more. Possibly Hillary or the State Department could have secured the permission of the Libyan government, in the middle of the night local time, but it would have been a long shot to get that approval, only air support would have made a difference and would not have arrived in time to deter the mortar attack, nevermind the fact the military really shouldn't have had to ask for any permission. And again reinforcements did arrive on scene and re-secured the compound a little more than 2 hours after the initial attack began. A hundred more security guards would not have deterred the initial attack or the mortar attack, only air support would have deterred the mortar attack in my opinion, but I don't believe any assets would have been able to make it to the scene in time. But it’s alright; the uber conservative sycophants will continue to drink their own kool-aide without regards to facts. If the Bible or Fox News told them to jump off a bridge they’d probably do it.

      Did Hillary and also Obama repeat that the anti-Muslim video helped inspire the attack, yes. In fact that situation is a bit murky, and who knows could end up classified if enough media start reporting on it. What group was it that claimed responsibility for the attack? Normally organised attacks are conducted by a terrorist group. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? No one? Ok, I’ll tell you. Ansar Al Sharia. At the time they were providing security for a local hospital in Benghazi, among other duties. They also weren'’t designated a terrorist organisation by the US and UK until 2014. Probably just another group of conservative Muslims receiving US money and weapons who turned on us, possibly in reaction to a video, or you know, the bombing of their region by US and company for the past 2-3 generations.

      And while we’re on that topic… Bush… awesome segue, I know. Here'’s the meat... And I hate to blame Bush for everything that’s gone wrong so far in the 21st century, I’ll just leave it at the 4.5 million dead Muslims. During the Bush administration I’m sure non-uber conservative sycophants would be up in arms about deaths of US personnel overseas despite warnings. What was the title of that presidential daily briefing again? No worries. Here’s a short and incomplete list of attacks on US personnel, not counting the wars.

      3 May, 2003, man dressed in a Saudi Navy uniform penetrates a US base and kills an American before escaping.
      12 May 2003 - Riyadh Compound Bombings kill 35, including 9 Americans.
      15 Oct 2003 - Three American diplomats are killed by a roadside bomb targeting their convoy in Gaza. Palestine Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization has taken responsibility for the attack.
      18 June 2004 - Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr, civilian working in Saudi Arabia, kidnapped and beheaded; five other Americans die in attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2004.
      2 Mar, 2006 - Car bomb explodes outside Consulate in Pakistan killing a US diplomat (this consulate had been attacked numerous times previously)
      17 Sep, 2008 - A coordinated attack resulted in a 20-minute battle with security killing 11 Yeminis, 6 attackers, and 1 American.

      Eh you know what, if you're bored here are a few links, maybe someone can round out my list.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...di_Arabia#2004
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack...tic_facilities
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...mericans#2010s
      (that last one includes a few attacks by conservatives against liberals and minorities)


      But clearly Bush and his appointees weren't doing enough to protect Americans, right? God forbid they should lie about weapons of mass destruction. The WMD program that Iraq used to have was sponsored by the US, then at the time he used them we supported him, even after Iraqi planes attacked a US Navy vessel, and the vast majority of Americans wanted to continue with weapons inspections before resorting to all out war.

      But Benghazi, right. Terrible tragedy, but let's not worry about changing any rules of engagement or current embassy security, stuff happens. There was the Beirut bombing. The Khobar Tower bombing. The attack on US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The attack on the USS Cole. One big cluster-fuck. At least in the good old days the two parties didn’'t hiss and scratch at each other like two fat cats fighting over the same spigot of cream from corporate lobbyists while getting to the spigot by calling all the other fat cats nasty names.

      You're so worried about emails and Benghazi given all of the above? You think Trump doesn't have ties to corporate interests or foreign dictators? His campaign manager resigned after receiving beaucoup bucks from shady Russian government officials. One of Trump’s principal investors (not to mention where his ties are made) is China. His ties make tremendous dish-washing rags by the way. Black communities in Blue States are doing ok, black communities, along with poor white communities across the Red States are driving key statistics down to third world country levels. Parts of Africa have higher standards of living than some Red States for Christ’s sake. Maybe this is the brave new world. Ignore political corruption, structural, and cultural problems in your own territory/party while simultaneously blaming the other party/territory. And when the other territory/party comes in and gives you government contracts AND welfare at a higher rate than they receive come up with some excuse as to why. I don’t care, keep your guns unregistered, just please don’t sell them on the black market to the blue territory. Don’t register your cars and your historic places either, see how that works out for ya. Take care while your maternal mortality rates go up and Zika spreads because funding isn’'t made available because your leaders are busy trying to find where Hillary didn'’t cross a t or dot an i. Just don’t blame Obama for gutting the military when his budget request was underfunded (and paid for with continuing resolutions) and a third of the F-35 budget (mostly un-appropriated at present) is set to cost more than a mission to Mars, the Shuttle Program, and the International Space Station, COMBINED.

      Don't blame Democratic Socialism for high poverty rates and low GDP growth when most of Europe, Japan, and Oceania all have lower poverty and far stronger middle classes. Don't blame immigrants because, with the exception of Japan, most of those countries have higher immigration rates than the US. Australia’s is off the chart higher. Don't blame It is, just fix your own communities. Hope that the Supreme Court can come to an untied decision if team Trump decides the list of lawsuits he’s involved in is too small and sues the swing states for the .01% of the vote that usually ends up recounted. Most of all make sure you give Hillary, achem, I mean the eventual president, a mandate to actually get stuff done. Just saying, CO, NH, VA and PA are polling safe Dem, OH, NC, FL, IA, are leaning Dem, and NV, AZ, and GA are just barely leaning red. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Bush the 1st, all got things done with regards to immigration, guns, and the budget. If you don’t like the blue team’s proposals, make your own. The last red team budget proposal I saw would leave millions starving and increase the deficit through lower taxes. Bush lowered taxes and increased spending and increased the debt by a larger percentage of the GDP, but somehow the Dems still get blamed for it. Maybe I’m asking too much here. Just note that emails and a tragic attack are nothing in comparison to the structural and cultural problems being created every day in the United States. Stay thirsty my friends.
      You don't seem to get it. It's not about the people who died in Benghazi or that Clinton set up her own secret server, it's about her character. Her pathological lies afterwards. She lies when the truth would do better. Most on the left even say she is not trustworthy. That being the case, how can you believe anything she says? Anything? You can't. She is a pathological compulsive liar. She has no soul. If that is what you want for the President of your country there is no hope for you.

      hillary-angry-2.jpg

      Trying to compare European countries to the United states is useless. We have states bigger than their countries. We have social, moral, and economic diversities that do not exist there. Look at the posts by Voland. The government there has an immigration system that is enforced. They have an unemployment system that forces people back into the labor market. With their taxes come responsibilities. Those things don't exist here. Half of the people in this country pay no federal taxes and yed want the federal government to take care of them.

      I have no idea how you can say Bush increased the debt by a larger percentage of GDP. Our GDP increases under Obama have been dismal an our debt has doubled to $20 trillion. The debt under Obama has increased more than the sum total debt of all previous Presidents.
      Last edited by OldmanDan; 08-23-2016, 08:02 AM.

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      • #4
        Email was new in 2008? I'd had an email account for about 20 years at that point.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
          Email was new in 2008? I'd had an email account for about 20 years at that point.
          Given how antiquated government offices often are and the slow pace of change from legacy systems it's not all that unbelievable. Just look at how old all the stuff is in nuclear bunkers is and if there's one place you'd think would get money for new equipment it would be those but they simply don't.
          Also the civil service has an abundance of secretaries who can take down letters and send them between departments so it's not exactly as if before the internet information couldn't flow between departments quickly so there wasn't an absolutely urgent need to change to email.
          Even trusty typewriters took ages to completely disappear.

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          • #6
            I will just take one point that you made. You said powell used a private account for secret info. I just heard today, that he used a private email account for personal business and the gov't secured server for his sensitive and non sensitive correspondence in fulfilling his duty.

            Clinton used a private server, no special security, for classified information, as well as personal correspondence. On top of that, she lied and said she had turned over all emails that concerned gov't business, and only deleted personal emails. As we found out, this was a lie, end of story.

            She knew she was supposed to protect sensitive information, and yet her choice in a private, at home server did not do this. In fact, it provided that info to anyone who can hack, and they did. Just this week, Powell responded to what Clinton had said, about his advice. She had already put that private server in operation before she ever talked with him. And, she said she was doing what Powell did, which was another lie. He never used his private email account for gov't business, especially for classified info, that both Clinton and he knew would be classified later on, due to the nature of the info. And yet some of the info Clinton had on her private server was classified, with the notation denoting it.

            Is an Ivy League lawyer this unsophisticated, this stupid? Hardly. She was trying to hide info from the gov't and the public, her employers. What was there to hide? Well, we know that too, some of it. And it was the appearance of quid pro quo, between donors of the foundation, and the Sec of State. If this is not important to a Clinton supporter, then one has to wonder why that is.

            Clinton is a pathological liar, and her record of judgment shows her not to have any. Is this what we really need in the most powerful office on earth? With the power to see the lives of others lost as she exercises her horrible judgment? How many americans will die, because her supporters put her into office, while knowing her great flaws and ineptness?

            Clinton is a known quantity. We already know how bad she is. Trump is an unknown, and we have no idea what kind of president he would be, if his judgment, after listing to his bevy of experts, would be intelligent judgment. But we already know Clinton has a habit of village idiot judgement. So, who should we take a chance with? I say Trump. For how could anyone be worse than Clinton, given that we know, with hard evidence, exactly what she is? Trump would be much easier for the gov't to control, than Clinton. She knows all of the political dirty tricks, is a known liar, and it would be harder to keep her from doing insane actions.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
              I will just take one point that you made. You said powell used a private account for secret info. I just heard today, that he used a private email account for personal business and the gov't secured server for his sensitive and non sensitive correspondence in fulfilling his duty.

              Clinton used a private server, no special security, for classified information, as well as personal correspondence. On top of that, she lied and said she had turned over all emails that concerned gov't business, and only deleted personal emails. As we found out, this was a lie, end of story.

              She knew she was supposed to protect sensitive information, and yet her choice in a private, at home server did not do this. In fact, it provided that info to anyone who can hack, and they did. Just this week, Powell responded to what Clinton had said, about his advice. She had already put that private server in operation before she ever talked with him. And, she said she was doing what Powell did, which was another lie. He never used his private email account for gov't business, especially for classified info, that both Clinton and he knew would be classified later on, due to the nature of the info. And yet some of the info Clinton had on her private server was classified, with the notation denoting it.

              Is an Ivy League lawyer this unsophisticated, this stupid? Hardly. She was trying to hide info from the gov't and the public, her employers. What was there to hide? Well, we know that too, some of it. And it was the appearance of quid pro quo, between donors of the foundation, and the Sec of State. If this is not important to a Clinton supporter, then one has to wonder why that is.

              Clinton is a pathological liar, and her record of judgment shows her not to have any. Is this what we really need in the most powerful office on earth? With the power to see the lives of others lost as she exercises her horrible judgment? How many americans will die, because her supporters put her into office, while knowing her great flaws and ineptness?

              Clinton is a known quantity. We already know how bad she is. Trump is an unknown, and we have no idea what kind of president he would be, if his judgment, after listing to his bevy of experts, would be intelligent judgment. But we already know Clinton has a habit of village idiot judgement. So, who should we take a chance with? I say Trump. For how could anyone be worse than Clinton, given that we know, with hard evidence, exactly what she is? Trump would be much easier for the gov't to control, than Clinton. She knows all of the political dirty tricks, is a known liar, and it would be harder to keep her from doing insane actions.
              All true. But again, you are wasting your breath because Clinton voters are all about emotions and nothing about facts.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post
                As a former government employee with Secret clearance I can say that a) everything from a diplomat’s shopping list to the flight schedule gets classified. I do feel comfortable saying that, even on this site.
                A couple questions, from someone who also held a security clearance:

                1. Are you aware that material classified at the Top Secret / Special Access Program level was found on her server? That's not "diplomats shopping list" level material. More like diplomat's address, codes to the security system, and computer passwords.

                2. As a former government employee with a Secret clearance, you had an outgoing briefing when you left. Do you recall what you were told about retaining classified materials after you left your job?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post

                  Given how antiquated government offices often are and the slow pace of change from legacy systems it's not all that unbelievable. Just look at how old all the stuff is in nuclear bunkers is and if there's one place you'd think would get money for new equipment it would be those but they simply don't.
                  Also the civil service has an abundance of secretaries who can take down letters and send them between departments so it's not exactly as if before the internet information couldn't flow between departments quickly so there wasn't an absolutely urgent need to change to email.
                  Even trusty typewriters took ages to completely disappear.
                  I had one of the last typewriters in the company backwhenI worked for a defese firm in my cubicle to complete certain goverment forms. Even with paper documets being required electronic subissions were years old.
                  Email as we know it was in place in 1973 and it was chiefly used to communicate to the government and between research facilities doing goverment work.
                  By 2008 email was an old familiar tool, what Cliton got away with is mind-numbing.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post

                    I had one of the last typewriters in the company backwhenI worked for a defese firm in my cubicle to complete certain goverment forms. Even with paper documets being required electronic subissions were years old.
                    Email as we know it was in place in 1973 and it was chiefly used to communicate to the government and between research facilities doing goverment work.
                    By 2008 email was an old familiar tool, what Cliton got away with is mind-numbing.
                    More than mind numbing to me. It doesn't belong in reality. Theis should be completely impossible. That it is not, is significant, more significant than people generally are realizing. So there is a change in our system, and a change that should have the entire nation upset, except, they do not seem smart enough to be upset. Or perhaps they do not care. The silence from the leaders of the GOP is troubling as well. That also signals something, which also should have people upset. All I know is the logical conclusion. We are no longer a rule of law democratic republic, and that means we are living under fascism. The republic is absolutely dead, and even the GOP does not give a rat's ass. That the People are accepting all of this m leans a change is impossible. How long did it take for us to get here? I think it occurred since 1980. I think turning the republic over to elite special interests got us here. And the media is a part of it, complicit in it, for it no longer speaks truth to power, it is a fragment of the current control mechanism. This is what happens when elite money is allowed into the political system. This is what happens when the gov't stops governing capitalism and captalism, a virulent form of it, governs. Not main street capitalism, but banking cabal corporate capitalism. A capitalism that is not expected nor required to be socially responsible, and is only concerned with maxing out short term profits. This ball of wax has many parts to it, and all of them are anti republic.

                    I expect,the theater and charade that makes it appear we are still a republic will go next. Afterall, it was revealed that the democratic nomination was a farce, that banana republic measures were used, and the democratic voters do not even care. Instead of rejecting the choice of the rigged system, clinton is still being supported, and she will win. And these democrats sold out the soul of a republic in order to put her into office. So now both facist parties know what they can get away with, and the people just do not care. As long as you do not take their smart phones away, or their entertainment, it is all good with the people. Or, most of them. The injustice lies in that we also get the gov't these people deserve, and some of us do not deserve the gov't these treasonous voters are giving us. We are surrounded by people enabling the fascists of both parties.
                    Last edited by Blue Doggy; 08-25-2016, 04:13 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                      You never Trumpers will have to take the blame when Hillary wins.
                      Blame Hillary for something that hasnt happened yet, based on speculation not facts. What are you worried Hillary will do?

                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                      You don't seem to get it. It's not about the people who died in Benghazi or that Clinton set up her own secret server, it's about her character. Her pathological lies afterwards. She lies when the truth would do better. Most on the left even say she is not trustworthy. That being the case, how can you believe anything she says? Anything? You can't. She is a pathological compulsive liar. She has no soul. If that is what you want for the President of your country there is no hope for you.
                      Pathological liar presumes that Hillary Clinton has a mental illness that makes her genetically predisposed to lying. That is impossible to prove and also based purely on speculation and arbitrary assumptions. If Hillary is a pathological liar than is Trump a sociopath, narcissist, misogynist, and/or bigot?

                      No soul? This is whats wrong with uber conservatives like yourself. I supported President Bush after 2004 and Ill mourn when he dies. Conservatives blindly follow their own kind regardless of any scandals. Based on fact here, not emotion.

                      No hope for me? In what regards?

                      I admit Hillary Clinton's faults, weigh them against Trump's and debate the facts. You came back with accusations and broad statements of judgement.



                      Ooh look, a picture of Hillary not smiling.


                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]n529155[/ATTACH]

                      Trump wasn't actually speaking here, he was just standing there listening to someone else speak...






                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                      Trying to compare European countries to the United states is useless. We have states bigger than their countries. We have social, moral, and economic diversities that do not exist there. Look at the posts by Voland. The government there has an immigration system that is enforced. They have an unemployment system that forces people back into the labor market. With their taxes come responsibilities. Those things don't exist here. Half of the people in this country pay no federal taxes and yed want the federal government to take care of them.

                      The EU has a population of around 500 million, not to mention Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand. Norway, Germany, Italy, UK, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Australia, and New Zealand all have a higher percentage of foreign born than the US. Australia and New Zealand mainly from Asia, India, also Africa and the Mideast. Europe is mainly from Eastern Europe where GDPs per capita are lower and the crime rates are higher than in much of Africa. Also they have large north African and Mideastern and Caribbean populations as well. Their immigration policy is enforced because they allow in a decent number. The US allows in a pittance and then acts surprised and chagrined when people flood across the border fleeing warzones the US helped create by supporting far right wing dictators throughout the 20th century. Also, the overall tax rate in the US is still far lower than in most of the rest of the civilised world, especially when deductions are taken into account.


                      Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post
                      I have no idea how you can say Bush increased the debt by a larger percentage of GDP. Our GDP increases under Obama have been dismal an our debt has doubled to $20 trillion. The debt under Obama has increased more than the sum total debt of all previous Presidents.

                      The final budget submitted and signed by President Clinton had a surplus of 128 billion. The national debt stood at 5.77 trillion or 54.6% of GDP at the time. The first budget submitted and signed by President Bush had a 157.8 billion deficit and raised the national debt to 6.2 trillion dollars, or 57% of GDP. President Bushs final budget had a deficit of 1.413 trillion dollars, brought the national debt to 11.876 trillion or 82.4% of GDP. Thats an increase of 27.8 from Clintons final budget. President Obamas first budget had a deficit of 1.294 trillion, a decrease of 119 billion from the previous years deficit. The national debt was brought to 13.53 trillion of 91.4% of GDP. Congress hasnt been signing President Obamas budgets for over a year now, instead they fulfil their constitutional duties with parliamentary tricks like continuing resolutions, but the 2016 budget is projected to bring the debt to 19.3 trillion. Just for arguments sake lets say the debt increases to 20 trillion by the end of the 2017 Fiscal Year. The GDP is projected to be 18.8 trillion. That would be 106.4% of GDP. From Bushs final budgets 82.4% of GDP to 106.4% would be an increase of 24%. 27.8% increase is greater than a 24% increase. You know, facts.

                      These are macroeconomic numbers so they are difficult to politicize or fudge, but just for reference, the debt would have to jump to 20.5 trillion and the GDP slump to 18.6 trillion for Obama to add as much to the national debt as a percentage of GDP. Counting from Bushs first budget to Bush s last and Obamas first to his last would only improve the numbers for Obama.

                      Trust me, dont argue with my facts with anything but facts and numbers of your own, because I always do my homework.

                      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                      I will just take one point that you made. You said powell used a private account for secret info. I just heard today, that he used a private email account for personal business and the gov't secured server for his sensitive and non sensitive correspondence in fulfilling his duty.

                      Clinton used a private server, no special security, for classified information, as well as personal correspondence. On top of that, she lied and said she had turned over all emails that concerned gov't business, and only deleted personal emails. As we found out, this was a lie, end of story.

                      She knew she was supposed to protect sensitive information, and yet her choice in a private, at home server did not do this. In fact, it provided that info to anyone who can hack, and they did. Just this week, Powell responded to what Clinton had said, about his advice. She had already put that private server in operation before she ever talked with him. And, she said she was doing what Powell did, which was another lie. He never used his private email account for gov't business, especially for classified info, that both Clinton and he knew would be classified later on, due to the nature of the info. And yet some of the info Clinton had on her private server was classified, with the notation denoting it.

                      Is an Ivy League lawyer this unsophisticated, this stupid? Hardly. She was trying to hide info from the gov't and the public, her employers. What was there to hide? Well, we know that too, some of it. And it was the appearance of quid pro quo, between donors of the foundation, and the Sec of State. If this is not important to a Clinton supporter, then one has to wonder why that is.

                      Clinton is a pathological liar, and her record of judgment shows her not to have any. Is this what we really need in the most powerful office on earth? With the power to see the lives of others lost as she exercises her horrible judgment? How many americans will die, because her supporters put her into office, while knowing her great flaws and ineptness?

                      Clinton is a known quantity. We already know how bad she is. Trump is an unknown, and we have no idea what kind of president he would be, if his judgment, after listing to his bevy of experts, would be intelligent judgment. But we already know Clinton has a habit of village idiot judgement. So, who should we take a chance with? I say Trump. For how could anyone be worse than Clinton, given that we know, with hard evidence, exactly what she is? Trump would be much easier for the gov't to control, than Clinton. She knows all of the political dirty tricks, is a known liar, and it would be harder to keep her from doing insane actions.
                      Clinton is a relatively known quantity, and the economy prospered under Bill Clinton and had a decent recovery under Obama. Bush wrecked the economy and the nation suffered. What advisers are you referring to who are giving Trump good advise? The one who had to resign after admitted, after previously lying about, taking massive donations from shady Russian government officials who had previously also supported the ousted president of Ukraine? Trump has said the US should let South Korea and Japan defend themselves against China and North Korea. He has said that the US would only help our NATO allies if they paid their bills. He has praised Chinas response to Tienanmen square where hundreds of people were massacred. He has praised Putin and even Saddam Hussein. He couldnt answer a simple question about the nuclear triad. Thats not an unknown Im willing to take a chance on when the worst charge we can throw at Hillary is that she hides information about her campaign contributors.


                      The new emails that the FBI released do not contain any classified material. They do contain communications between contributors to the Clinton Foundation, and I do indeed count that in my list of Clinton faults. Theyve also said they would stop taking money from foreign entities and corporations if elected. Anyway, alert the news media, a politician is hiding information about contributions theyve received.

                      Powell has said repeatedly he is proud of using private email.

                      The beauty of it was I eliminated time and space as a barrier to communications he says. I encouraged everybody to use it.
                      http://www.networkworld.com/article/...should-vo.html

                      The State Department IG issued a report,

                      "it said definitively that past secretaries handled classified material on unclassified email systems."
                      http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secre...ry?id=37404084



                      Originally posted by MattInFla View Post

                      A couple questions, from someone who also held a security clearance:

                      1. Are you aware that material classified at the Top Secret / Special Access Program level was found on her server? That's not "diplomats shopping list" level material. More like diplomat's address, codes to the security system, and computer passwords.

                      2. As a former government employee with a Secret clearance, you had an outgoing briefing when you left. Do you recall what you were told about retaining classified materials after you left your job?
                      1. I was not aware, please provide evidence of this.

                      2. I honestly don't but I do recall the briefing. I believe it can be summarized as, don't disclose any classified materials, sign here, ok Semper Fi.

                      What are you trying to get at? I was strictly need to know, low level, nothing insidious.

                      The intelligence community does perform valuable work tracking down WMD's and monitoring various war zones and potential war zones. It's important to keep some things classified, but nothing I've seen in the email scandal gives me any cause for concern, beyond the basic ok, bad move, let's update existing systems to make them as easy to use as private email, which is exactly what happened.

                      As someone who also held security clearance I'm curious what you thought of Ansar Al-Sharia claiming responsibility, and being blamed for, the Benghazi attack given that they were not declared a terrorist organisation until 2014 and at the time of the attack they were providing security to the local hospital in Benghazi, among other humanitarian activities?

                      Also curious what you think of the PKK and the other moderate rebels?


                      Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post

                      I had one of the last typewriters in the company backwhenI worked for a defese firm in my cubicle to complete certain goverment forms. Even with paper documets being required electronic subissions were years old.
                      Email as we know it was in place in 1973 and it was chiefly used to communicate to the government and between research facilities doing goverment work.
                      By 2008 email was an old familiar tool, what Cliton got away with is mind-numbing.
                      What did she get away with? Government record keeping is abysmal according to multiple reports. To date there have been no emails marked classified at the time they were sent or received foundon her email, and information later marked classified has been found on Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rices staffs personal emails. Server is irrelevant, unless someone can explain to me why it isnt. As far as I know Google uses servers from Norway to New Zealand. A server is like a computer hard drive. Servers dont get secured, networks do. And even the NSA got hacked.

                      Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post

                      More than mind numbing to me. It doesn't belong in reality. Theis should be completely impossible. That it is not, is significant, more significant than people generally are realizing. So there is a change in our system, and a change that should have the entire nation upset, except, they do not seem smart enough to be upset. Or perhaps they do not care. The silence from the leaders of the GOP is troubling as well. That also signals something, which also should have people upset. All I know is the logical conclusion. We are no longer a rule of law democratic republic, and that means we are living under fascism. The republic is absolutely dead, and even the GOP does not give a rat's ass. That the People are accepting all of this m leans a change is impossible. How long did it take for us to get here? I think it occurred since 1980. I think turning the republic over to elite special interests got us here. And the media is a part of it, complicit in it, for it no longer speaks truth to power, it is a fragment of the current control mechanism. This is what happens when elite money is allowed into the political system. This is what happens when the gov't stops governing capitalism and captalism, a virulent form of it, governs. Not main street capitalism, but banking cabal corporate capitalism. A capitalism that is not expected nor required to be socially responsible, and is only concerned with maxing out short term profits. This ball of wax has many parts to it, and all of them are anti republic.

                      I expect,the theater and charade that makes it appear we are still a republic will go next. Afterall, it was revealed that the democratic nomination was a farce, that banana republic measures were used, and the democratic voters do not even care. Instead of rejecting the choice of the rigged system, clinton is still being supported, and she will win. And these democrats sold out the soul of a republic in order to put her into office. So now both facist parties know what they can get away with, and the people just do not care. As long as you do not take their smart phones away, or their entertainment, it is all good with the people. Or, most of them. The injustice lies in that we also get the gov't these people deserve, and some of us do not deserve the gov't these treasonous voters are giving us. We are surrounded by people enabling the fascists of both parties.

                      Again, what did she get away with? Please complete that thought. I do infact agree that the United States stopped being a decent Republic long ago. Id peg the start of the decline around the start of the Vietnam War, our standing abroad died in the mid 2000s with torture, extraordinary renditions, and a pre-emptive war based on lies, and at home with the global financial crisis which occurred under a Republican president at a time when most of the economic watchdogs were Bush appointees. So what would you like to see happen?

                      Infrastructure investments? Closing of tax loopholes? I like cutting red tape but it should be done with a scalpel not a chainsaw. Same with spending reductions. Lets means test social security before we just cut funding. Medicare keeps old people and the disabled from suffering. Meanwhile the F-35 fighter is set to cost 1.5 trillion, money that mostly hasnt been appropriated yet. The overall procurement budget is extremely bloated yet the Pentagon is cutting troop numbers rather than orders for new MRAPs and anti-air systems, half of which will probably end up in the hands of some foreign dictator or rebel group. If you quadrupled NASAs budget it wouldnt equal the black budget and the nuke budget.

                      I know my priorities. Theyre more in line with the priorities of Europe, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand, all of which happen to have less crime and a stronger middle class than the US. With the exception of Japan theyre becoming more diverse than the US. Yes the US had this little thing called slavery, hmm I wonder which part of the nation supported that? Never mind, it was followed by segregation then a war on drugs and people wonder why the communities are so messed up. Im not an apologist, Im a sociologist. In Australia they give aboriginals jobs just for being aboriginal, and I think thats a good thing. We are our brothers keeper, wrote some guy from some book. Those who live by the sword, die by it. The US has been living by the sword for too long. Butter not bombs.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post

                        Blame Hillary for something that hasnt happened yet, based on speculation not facts. What are you worried Hillary will do?

                        I believe she will appoint liberal Supreme Court Justices who will wipe out our constitutional rights as their predecessors have done.


                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post
                        Pathological liar presumes that Hillary Clinton has a mental illness that makes her genetically predisposed to lying. That is impossible to prove and also based purely on speculation and arbitrary assumptions. If Hillary is a pathological liar than is Trump a sociopath, narcissist, misogynist, and/or bigot?

                        No soul? This is whats wrong with uber conservatives like yourself. I supported President Bush after 2004 and Ill mourn when he dies. Conservatives blindly follow their own kind regardless of any scandals. Based on fact here, not emotion.

                        No hope for me? In what regards?

                        I admit Hillary Clinton's faults, weigh them against Trump's and debate the facts. You came back with accusations and broad statements of judgement.
                        If you can't see that Hillary lies when the truth would do better, there is no hope for you. When someone is a liar, you can't believe anything they say and yet you obviously do.



                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post

                        The EU has a population of around 500 million, not to mention Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand. Norway, Germany, Italy, UK, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Australia, and New Zealand all have a higher percentage of foreign born than the US. Australia and New Zealand mainly from Asia, India, also Africa and the Mideast. Europe is mainly from Eastern Europe where GDPs per capita are lower and the crime rates are higher than in much of Africa. Also they have large north African and Mideastern and Caribbean populations as well. Their immigration policy is enforced because they allow in a decent number. The US allows in a pittance and then acts surprised and chagrined when people flood across the border fleeing warzones the US helped create by supporting far right wing dictators throughout the 20th century. Also, the overall tax rate in the US is still far lower than in most of the rest of the civilised world, especially when deductions are taken into account.
                        You like numbers, define pittance. The U.S. allows over a million legal immigrants a year on top of the millions of illegal immigrants which have also been allowed.


                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post
                        The final budget submitted and signed by President Clinton had a surplus of 128 billion. The national debt stood at 5.77 trillion or 54.6% of GDP at the time. The first budget submitted and signed by President Bush had a 157.8 billion deficit and raised the national debt to 6.2 trillion dollars, or 57% of GDP. President Bushs final budget had a deficit of 1.413 trillion dollars, brought the national debt to 11.876 trillion or 82.4% of GDP. Thats an increase of 27.8 from Clintons final budget. President Obamas first budget had a deficit of 1.294 trillion, a decrease of 119 billion from the previous years deficit. The national debt was brought to 13.53 trillion of 91.4% of GDP. Congress hasnt been signing President Obamas budgets for over a year now, instead they fulfil their constitutional duties with parliamentary tricks like continuing resolutions, but the 2016 budget is projected to bring the debt to 19.3 trillion. Just for arguments sake lets say the debt increases to 20 trillion by the end of the 2017 Fiscal Year. The GDP is projected to be 18.8 trillion. That would be 106.4% of GDP. From Bushs final budgets 82.4% of GDP to 106.4% would be an increase of 24%. 27.8% increase is greater than a 24% increase. You know, facts.
                        These are macroeconomic numbers so they are difficult to politicize or fudge, but just for reference, the debt would have to jump to 20.5 trillion and the GDP slump to 18.6 trillion for Obama to add as much to the national debt as a percentage of GDP. Counting from Bushs first budget to Bush s last and Obamas first to his last would only improve the numbers for Obama.

                        Trust me, dont argue with my facts with anything but facts and numbers of your own, because I always do my homework.
                        Bush submitted a budget his final year but it was rejected by Congress and then the Democrat Congress added a trillion dollars in stimulus spending which Obama signed. That Trillion is on Obama, not Bush.

                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post
                        Clinton is a relatively known quantity, and the economy prospered under Bill Clinton and had a decent recovery under Obama. Bush wrecked the economy and the nation suffered. What advisers are you referring to who are giving Trump good advise? The one who had to resign after admitted, after previously lying about, taking massive donations from shady Russian government officials who had previously also supported the ousted president of Ukraine? Trump has said the US should let South Korea and Japan defend themselves against China and North Korea. He has said that the US would only help our NATO allies if they paid their bills. He has praised Chinas response to Tienanmen square where hundreds of people were massacred. He has praised Putin and even Saddam Hussein. He couldnt answer a simple question about the nuclear triad. Thats not an unknown Im willing to take a chance on when the worst charge we can throw at Hillary is that she hides information about her campaign contributors.
                        You know nothing about Hillary Clinton. She lies every time she opens her mouth and the MSM cover up anything negative about her. You don't really know why she has dizzy spells and coughing fits, you obviously don't know all of her flip flops that happen when she started campaigning. You don't have any idea what a rueful bitch she is to all of those around her, including her husband. The Clintons are both racists. They treat black people as servants. Ask anybody in Arkansas who lived there when Bill was Governor. I lived there at that time. Hillary is a war monger. She was the reason we went into Syria and Libya. The only reason the economy was good under Clinton was because he reigned during a post Reagan peace dividend and had a Gingrich led Congress.

                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post
                        The new emails that the FBI released do not contain any classified material. They do contain communications between contributors to the Clinton Foundation, and I do indeed count that in my list of Clinton faults. Theyve also said they would stop taking money from foreign entities and corporations if elected. Anyway, alert the news media, a politician is hiding information about contributions theyve received.

                        Powell has said repeatedly he is proud of using private email.

                        The beauty of it was I eliminated time and space as a barrier to communications he says. I encouraged everybody to use it.
                        http://www.networkworld.com/article/...should-vo.html

                        The State Department IG issued a report,

                        "it said definitively that past secretaries handled classified material on unclassified email systems."
                        http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secre...ry?id=37404084
                        No previous SOS set up their own e-mail server in their basement. No other SOS had their e-mail hacked by foreign entities. She did it to hide covert activities of hers, not the government's. The FBI said:

                        Clinton was wrong when she said she never sent or received classified information over the server. "Our investigation found ... 110 [emails with then-classified information] that she either received or sent," he said.

                        According to Comey, Clinton was also wrong when she claimed nothing marked "classified" was sent to or from her private account.


                        Comey: Clinton Should Not Be Prosecuted for 'Gross Negligence,' Even Though She Was 'Extremely Careless'

                        http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-d...ry?id=41044927

                        Originally posted by .3dontVoteParty View Post

                        What did she get away with? Government record keeping is abysmal according to multiple reports. To date there have been no emails marked classified at the time they were sent or received foundon her email, and information later marked classified has been found on Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rices staffs personal emails. Server is irrelevant, unless someone can explain to me why it isnt. As far as I know Google uses servers from Norway to New Zealand. A server is like a computer hard drive. Servers dont get secured, networks do. And even the NSA got hacked.
                        She was not held accountable for many things that others have gone to prison for. Had she been you, you would be in jail.



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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post


                          I believe she will appoint liberal Supreme Court Justices who will wipe out our constitutional rights as their predecessors have done.




                          If you can't see that Hillary lies when the truth would do better, there is no hope for you. When someone is a liar, you can't believe anything they say and yet you obviously do.





                          You like numbers, define pittance. The U.S. allows over a million legal immigrants a year on top of the millions of illegal immigrants which have also been allowed.




                          Bush submitted a budget his final year but it was rejected by Congress and then the Democrat Congress added a trillion dollars in stimulus spending which Obama signed. That Trillion is on Obama, not Bush.



                          You know nothing about Hillary Clinton. She lies every time she opens her mouth and the MSM cover up anything negative about her. You don't really know why she has dizzy spells and coughing fits, you obviously don't know all of her flip flops that happen when she started campaigning. You don't have any idea what a rueful bitch she is to all of those around her, including her husband. The Clintons are both racists. They treat black people as servants. Ask anybody in Arkansas who lived there when Bill was Governor. I lived there at that time. Hillary is a war monger. She was the reason we went into Syria and Libya. The only reason the economy was good under Clinton was because he reigned during a post Reagan peace dividend and had a Gingrich led Congress.



                          No previous SOS set up their own e-mail server in their basement. No other SOS had their e-mail hacked by foreign entities. She did it to hide covert activities of hers, not the government's. The FBI said:

                          Clinton was wrong when she said she never sent or received classified information over the server. "Our investigation found ... 110 [emails with then-classified information] that she either received or sent," he said.

                          According to Comey, Clinton was also wrong when she claimed nothing marked "classified" was sent to or from her private account.


                          Comey: Clinton Should Not Be Prosecuted for 'Gross Negligence,' Even Though She Was 'Extremely Careless'

                          http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-d...ry?id=41044927



                          She was not held accountable for many things that others have gone to prison for. Had she been you, you would be in jail.


                          So were the entire banking community during the recent banking crisis and near collapse of the entire economies of the US and Europe but you had zero problem with them so it's hard to take you seriously when you shout about people doing things they shouldn't.

                          ?


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post

                            So were the entire banking community during the recent banking crisis and near collapse of the entire economies of the US and Europe but you had zero problem with them so it's hard to take you seriously when you shout about people doing things they shouldn't.
                            Where did I ever say I had no problem with the corrupt banking system. My only beef is, everyone wants to blame the banks for what Clinton and Reno started. Had the government stayed out of the housing market, not of the rest would have happened.

                            ?


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OldmanDan View Post

                              Where did I ever say I had no problem with the corrupt banking system. My only beef is, everyone wants to blame the banks for what Clinton and Reno started. Had the government stayed out of the housing market, not of the rest would have happened.
                              Yep, you've really had it in for those bankers over the last 5 years you've been calling for them to face prison every other day.

                              You have been blaming everyone but the bankers and claiming that any and all curbs on their activity however minor is somehow wrong and any government involvement in the sector is bad since I got here don't try and claim otherwise.

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