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The Declaration of Independence and today.

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  • The Declaration of Independence and today.

    I am not laying this at any one President's doorstep, it fits from Clinton to now and is very much non-partisan.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
    I think this can be said about Clinton, Bush and Obama and getting progressively worse from the first to the last.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    Obama wins this one hands down.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
    This is variable, depending on how you look at the laws passed and not passed, mainly the Budget.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
    I cannot think of any instance of this one particularly for any President.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
    This one is tricky, but primarily Obama has done this type of action. If I sift through Bush I can find a couple instances that could be classed under this one.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    Most definitely Clinton and Obama. The Illegal immigration, though this is talking about more about not encouraging immigration it is still in the same general context.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
    Obama, generally and specifically when he threatened the Supreme Court during the Heller case.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
    Started with Bush and expanded with Obama, DHS and others.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
    This one goes back almost and probably includes Washington. The NDAA is completely at odds with the principles of the Constitution. Yes I am saying it, we should not have the military we have now at all under the Constitution.

    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
    This one sort of goes with the one above in some ways. Though the current laws and changes have seemed to be pushing the military in such a way.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    If Obama had his way, he would have the UN Treaty ratified. He is still trying to figure out how to get around congress on this one most likely.

    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    These two do not seem to pertinent at this time. The second is more a reverse. It is okay for us to send money to people who cut up and desecrate a body but one of ours pisses on a dead body and he is taken to task for it.

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
    Clinton - NAFTA, Bush - NAFTA, CAFTA, Obama - NAFTA, CAFTA. No it isn't cutting off trade it is encouraging companies to move operations elsewhere.

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    ACA

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    Starting with Bush and continuing with Obama, Patriot Act and other laws.

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    Most of these are the result of Executive Orders and Signing Statements. This goes back to Washington again though recently it has become even worse. Same with the Czars that are appointed, non-elected people who have radically great control over our lives.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
    These last are a mixed bag, Obama has encouraged class warfare and has been extremely divisive.



    All this at the bending over of Congress and letting the Presidents and more especially Obama in many cases run all over us.

    There are many examples but this post is getting long. We can all look up the actual incidents and discuss them in other threads but this I ask.


    With so much of the Government doing exactly what we fought the Revolution for, why are we still bending over and taking it hard? Our Ancestors went to war against England for less provocation that we take now from our government. Isn't it time to start standing up and instead of talking on some forum actually get involved? I know TEA Party and the other side and their camp out. As Swayze said in Roadhouse, till it is time not to be nice, well it is time to not be nice. We need to start doing things that will make the Legislators take notice.


    I do not have all the answers but I do have ideas.

  • #2
    Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

    Well...we could just vote for somebody else...

    It's hard to make too strong an analogy with the Declaration when you consider that we get to reaffirm our choice of rulers every 2-6 years.

    One could argue that the people aren't given "real" choices, but that's a problem with the system itself.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #3
      Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

      Originally posted by Dilettante View Post
      One could argue that the people aren't given "real" choices, but that's a problem with the system itself.
      No, it's a problem with the people...

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #4
        Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

        Ddp...

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #5
          Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

          Originally posted by Dilettante View Post
          Well...we could just vote for somebody else...

          It's hard to make too strong an analogy with the Declaration when you consider that we get to reaffirm our choice of rulers every 2-6 years.

          One could argue that the people aren't given "real" choices, but that's a problem with the system itself.
          Yeah because voting has really helped. The 2010 election was a blip but barely a blip, many of the TEA party candidates turned out to be Liberals in Conservative clothing.

          I am not really making an analogy as I am stating that we went to war in the Revolution for these reasons but are willing to bed over for the same reasons rather than stop them.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #6
            Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

            Originally posted by tsquare View Post
            No, it's a problem with the people...
            That's f--ked up. The people are always right, even when they are wrong (as decided by the SCOTUS).

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #7
              Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

              Originally posted by Dilettante View Post
              Well...we could just vote for somebody else...

              It's hard to make too strong an analogy with the Declaration when you consider that we get to reaffirm our choice of rulers every 2-6 years.

              One could argue that the people aren't given "real" choices, but that's a problem with the system itself.
              That there is a problem with the system is why we revolted in 1st place.

              I would argue the systemic problem is the so-called 2 party system, which is not in our Constitution.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #8
                Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

                Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                With so much of the Government doing exactly what we fought the Revolution for, why are we still bending over and taking it hard?
                It has to do with where we are in the circle of freedom:
                1. >From bondage to spiritual faith;
                2. >From spiritual faith to great courage;
                3. >From courage to liberty;
                4. >From liberty to abundance;
                5. >From abundance to complacency;
                6. >From complacency to apathy;
                7. >From apathy to dependence;
                8. >From dependence back into bondage

                I believe we are at stage 7 or 8.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #9
                  Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

                  Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                  That there is a problem with the system is why we revolted in 1st place.

                  I would argue the systemic problem is the so-called 2 party system, which is not in our Constitution.
                  Very true, and many of the Founders (Washington in particular) greatly feared such a party system.

                  However, despite their inability to foresee it, a 2-party political systems is the almost inevitable result of the government created by the US Constitution. That document wasn't 10 years old before the first US party system (with two major parties) emerged.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #10
                    Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

                    Originally posted by Dilettante View Post
                    Very true, and many of the Founders (Washington in particular) greatly feared such a party system.

                    However, despite their inability to foresee it, a 2-party political systems is the almost inevitable result of the government created by the US Constitution. That document wasn't 10 years old before the first US party system (with two major parties) emerged.
                    There was a system that was changed, not sure when. Basically 2 party but the winning party had to take the losing candidate as his Vice President. I think that helped keep control on the President as well.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #11
                      Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

                      Dependence Day?

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #12
                        Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

                        Originally posted by JohnLocke View Post
                        That there is a problem with the system is why we revolted in 1st place.

                        I would argue the systemic problem is the so-called 2 party system, which is not in our Constitution.
                        I agree with you.
                        Having just 2 main parties has been something I've never understood as surely it's rather limited to exactly the kind of hyper partisanship we see today?
                        You have Liberals and Conservatives with no balancing third party to try to make things less like a school yard punchup. It also doesn't help that you don't seem to have an equivalent of PMQ's or Question Time where politicians or the public can question the leadership of the time with tough questions and watch them squirm and you just have the debates before an election.
                        In some ways US politics is great but questioning the leadership seems to be seen as something special rather than the routine which it should be.
                        Am I wrong or has it always been that way?

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #13
                          Re: The Declaration of Independence and today.

                          Originally posted by PeterUK75 View Post
                          Having just 2 main parties has been something I've never understood as surely it's rather limited to exactly the kind of hyper partisanship we see today?
                          You have Liberals and Conservatives with no balancing third party to try to make things less like a school yard punchup. It also doesn't help that you don't seem to have an equivalent of PMQ's or Question Time where politicians or the public can question the leadership of the time with tough questions ... In some ways US politics is great but questioning the leadership seems to be seen as something special rather than the routine which it should be.
                          Am I wrong or has it always been that way?
                          You bring up two interesting points:
                          1. Access to our public servants. See Thirty-Thousand.org - Return the House of Representatives to the People (Home Page).
                          2. The one party system - with two wings.

                          I do not believe it was always this way but we now have taxation without representation as the Constitution details. I believe voting is offered to too many people who should not be voting, like they are not direct tax payers. Since so many people do not have a vested interest in good governance, only the continuation of the welfare state, our system has deteriorated to cater to the low information voter. The two party system, the binary simplicity of 1 (continue welfare benefits) or 0 (oppose welfare benefits).

                          מה מכילות החדשות?

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