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The Problem of the Left

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  • The Problem of the Left

    Since 1979 I have been increasingly disappointed by Americas left necessitating my need to register as a non partisan voter many years ago. The left, in my view, has allowed, what were very good social principals and practices to become weakened and over indulged in. For example, the countrys system of a safety net through a welfare program has been allowed to be used as a tool by the lazy and the black market almost to the point of threatening the existence of it. This would include medical, section eight housing food stamps and other social assistance programs that should be benefits of citizenship rather than a simple market for those who dont want to work.

    Secondly, the left has actively and intentionally participated in the downfall of our middle class which has been built and maintained by a strong US labor movement that in fact lifted all boats. The rising deficits and mismanaged military involvements and a crooked market system have landed us in economic catastrophe. The left has allowed the 1% of this country to receive now 20% on the gross income produced in this country! The socio economic model drawn out and executed as a result of the Great Depression has almost collapsed due to a weak and indecisive Democratic party that has allowed itself to be mocked and manipulated by a right-wing philosophy and economic model that has intentionally driven this countrys welfare for itself right off of cliff. For the Democrats, it has not been pay as you go, but pay for our fuckups again. Moreover, the left as allowed itself to be aligned with philosophies like socialism, and this ridiculous nanny state cradle to grave idea of big government that has only served to complicate the abilities of any Democratic administration to credibly execute any agenda of social import. No, the left has been equally responsible for the hole that we in this country find ourselves in.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: The Problem of the Left

    I'm not certain how much the left has allowed themselves to be manipulated into their current positions. I think they pretty much put themselves into their positions all by themselves.

    Clearly, you have certain instances in mind. Care to share them?

    I agree that the left has lost their foundation of principals, especially when it comes to the countries social safety nets. These programs gave grown into an overlapping morass without hope of controlling enrollment qualifications, amounts paid out, benefits collected or managing the costs, and are in fact counter to their original vision and intentions, i.e. a temporary hand up and not a permanent hand out. And finally, yes, they have dug some of the current financial hole that the federal government finds itself in. http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/econ...-spending.html is yet another, and is also often driven by the lefts in congress, but not exclusively so.

    It seems that the left has been highjacked by the extreme left, and now, for the most part, are all lockstep promoting and espousing the extremist left agenda.

    Part of the agenda appears to be the indoctrination of children, so that they are exposed to, and embrace, the liberal ideology. This has been reviewed and discussed in http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/cult...trination.html, and appears to be true, not only in higher education, where students should have achieved sufficient maturity to discern and ignore this, to high school and grade school even.

    While this is all fine and good in the liberal dominated echo chamber of the coasts (a fine example is here http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/cult...ml#post2190964, same terms, same points pervasive in the MSM) and the national media centered in the Eastern liberal corridor of New York and Washington DC, it doesn't play well in the 'fly over' states of the rest of the country, and when it doesn't, the left is surprised that it doesn't. Their ego centric explanation is 'they just don't understand', or they are philistines, and we know what's best, and lastly, 'we need to force what we think is right on them by law or regulation'. All this does is serve to aggravate the disconnect between the liberal elites and the rest of the country.

    Liberals of years past wouldn't have taken that approach nor that attitude, hence political strife and partisanship reigns supreme. Granted, some of the right have been far too willing to play along, and they are pretty much complicit in the political partisanship environment that the electorate now has to suffer through. But as the analysis in another thread shows, the right has been far more consistent in their positions and core values over the long term than the left has been (I ststed in the OP that the right-wing has been saying the same thing since at least 1966).
    Last edited by eohrnberger; 09-14-2013, 03:52 PM.

    ?


    • #3
      Re: The Problem of the Left

      The safety nets have become hammocks. We can't have this many people who are "unable" to work.

      People are making poor life decisions based on the "safety net" available. The easiest example is teen and unwed pregnancies. If the grandparents don't pick up the slack, the taxpayer is left holding the bag.

      Welfare needs to be reserved for those that can prove they are "unable" to work. If someone can afford drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, and tattoos, they don't need my money. I'm all for freedom, but not at my expense.

      Both parties are increasingly using handouts to buy voters. This country can't afford it. Our national debt is proof. The other technique is to train voters in indoctrination seminars (schools) Those that see it are fed up with it and we won't survive as a nation for more than a couple of decades at the rate we are going.

      ?


      • #4
        Re: The Problem of the Left

        Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
        I'm not certain how much the left has allowed themselves to be manipulated into their current positions. I think they pretty much put themselves into their positions all by themselves.

        Clearly, you have certain instances in mind. Care to share them?

        I agree that the left has lost their foundation of principals, especially when it comes to the countries social safety nets. These programs gave grown into an overlapping morass without hope of controlling enrollment qualifications, amounts paid out, benefits collected or managing the costs, and are in fact counter to their original vision and intentions, i.e. a temporary hand up and not a permanent hand out. And finally, yes, they have dug some of the current financial hole that the federal government finds itself in. http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/econ...-spending.html is yet another, and is also often driven by the lefts in congress, but not exclusively so.

        It seems that the left has been highjacked by the extreme left, and now, for the most part, are all lockstep promoting and espousing the extremist left agenda.

        Part of the agenda appears to be the indoctrination of children, so that they are exposed to, and embrace, the liberal ideology. This has been reviewed and discussed in http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/cult...trination.html, and appears to be true, not only in higher education, where students should have achieved sufficient maturity to discern and ignore this, to high school and grade school even.

        While this is all fine and good in the liberal dominated echo chamber of the coasts (a fine example is here http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/cult...ml#post2190964, same terms, same points pervasive in the MSM) and the national media centered in the Eastern liberal corridor of New York and Washington DC, it doesn't play well in the 'fly over' states of the rest of the country, and when it doesn't, the left is surprised that it doesn't. Their ego centric explanation is 'they just don't understand', or they are philistines, and we know what's best, and lastly, 'we need to force what we think is right on them by law or regulation'. All this does is serve to aggravate the disconnect between the liberal elites and the rest of the country.

        Liberals of years past wouldn't have taken that approach nor that attitude, hence political strife and partisanship reigns supreme. Granted, some of the right have been far too willing to play along, and they are pretty much complicit in the political partisanship environment that the electorate now has to suffer through. But as the analysis in another thread shows, the right has been far more consistent in their positions and core values over the long term than the left has been (I ststed in the OP that the right-wing has been saying the same thing since at least 1966).
        The manipulation: The Dems have allowed the talking point vitriol of the right to be a part of the political discourse and thus become common place, rather than correct and point out the very weakness of the Republican party with respect to their exclusionary agenda. That is to say; there have been enough credible rebuttal arguments made by the left to remind people how the right has and continues to injure this country.

        You and I agree on how the left has allowed its policies to become abused and made a mockery of. As for the extreme left, I don’t see the extreme left in this picture, but rather a passing influence that is capitalized on by the right-wing. In my view the extreme left consists of active socialist groups, extreme women’s and of color racial groups. The Dems have been riding on FDR’s accomplishments and those of Kennedy and Johnson. Yet the Dems have done nothing to advance those policies in the same way that the right is bent on destroying them.

        To talk about the liberal dominated coasts is disingenuous and omits the fact that the coasts are very highly populated with continuous movement of people both native and foreign. So trying to keep a conservative ideology and other such traditions as a staple is impossible. The coasts have always been fluid and highly active, unlike the fly over states where life is more stable and slow enough to actually enjoy. It should be remembered that when we see a red vs blue states, it always appears as though there is more red vs blue. However, the red is mostly just area wherein the blue is very densely populated. As you know, highly populated areas are much more fluid. I don’t see there being so much of a forcing of laws and regulations in as much as we see high demand by the populace.

        I think that the political strife, in my view, is the direct result of shock jock radio. That form of media became permissible and so we now have Lush Rumbaugh an the likes of Michael (Wheiner) Savage. Politics has become a simple market: professional wrestling on the radio.
        And the Dems of course have done nothing to stem that tide and help the public take a more intelligent approach.

        ?


        • #5
          Re: The Problem of the Left

          Originally posted by jet57 View Post
          The manipulation: The Dems have allowed the talking point vitriol of the right to be a part of the political discourse and thus become common place...
          What a whinny load of...

          "Allowed" you mean fought tooth and nail to prevent and lost, but only because of the overwhelming support of the people.

          The left in general and you in particular, have still not recovered from the time that you lost total domination of the media in this country. You continuing to whine about it here proves again that the left's (so called) ideas cannot survive in anything other than a vacuum. When given a clear choice, the people, God bless them, will always pick the conservative position. Well, people other than hard core leftists. (see below)

          Which brings us to another point: there is only the far left. There is no other 'center-left' or 'moderate left' There exists only the far left, and those that aid and abet them. 'Useful fools' if you will. You saw a shinning example of this is action in the 2009 ACA 'debate'

          The hard left that is in charge of the Democratic Party made no room for their own elected members... These people were elected because they were 'moderate' in swing districts. It was vote for this leftist health bill or you are out of the party. These 'blue dog' Democrats pointed out that if they supported the bill as it was written, they'd be out in 2010 anyway, but their hard left 'leaders' would have it no other way. So a generation of moderates were purged from the Democratic Party over this one issue. We see this happen over and over with the Democrats, but people like you... either cheer or ignore it.

          That which I've written above is demonstrable fact from just 4 years ago. It happened. Yet you will insist that it's the Republicans that are radical, and not the far left Democrats, even if the face of these facts. It is this willful 'suspension of intellect' that makes discussion of this and many other topics near impossible.

          There are only three groups that make up the American Political Left today:

          The hard core Marxist/Statist Party Leadership
          The 'fellow travelers' that support that Marxist/Statist Leadership, it's goals and ideology
          The 'useful fools'

          The question is: which are you?

          ?


          • #6
            Re: The Problem of the Left

            Originally posted by tsquare View Post
            What a whinny load of...

            "Allowed" you mean fought tooth and nail to prevent and lost, but only because of the overwhelming support of the people.

            The left in general and you in particular, have still not recovered from the time that you lost total domination of the media in this country. You continuing to whine about it here proves again that the left's (so called) ideas cannot survive in anything other than a vacuum. When given a clear choice, the people, God bless them, will always pick the conservative position. Well, people other than hard core leftists. (see below)

            Which brings us to another point: there is only the far left. There is no other 'center-left' or 'moderate left' There exists only the far left, and those that aid and abet them. 'Useful fools' if you will. You saw a shinning example of this is action in the 2009 ACA 'debate'

            The hard left that is in charge of the Democratic Party made no room for their own elected members... These people were elected because they were 'moderate' in swing districts. It was vote for this leftist health bill or you are out of the party. These 'blue dog' Democrats pointed out that if they supported the bill as it was written, they'd be out in 2010 anyway, but their hard left 'leaders' would have it no other way. So a generation of moderates were purged from the Democratic Party over this one issue. We see this happen over and over with the Democrats, but people like you... either cheer or ignore it.

            That which I've written above is demonstrable fact from just 4 years ago. It happened. Yet you will insist that it's the Republicans that are radical, and not the far left Democrats, even if the face of these facts. It is this willful 'suspension of intellect' that makes discussion of this and many other topics near impossible.

            There are only three groups that make up the American Political Left today:

            The hard core Marxist/Statist Party Leadership
            The 'fellow travelers' that support that Marxist/Statist Leadership, it's goals and ideology
            The 'useful fools'

            The question is: which are you?
            But you constantly insist that anybody who disagrees with you on ANY ONE point is to the far left.
            Ricardo's Comparative Advantage, for instance.

            ?


            • #7
              Re: The Problem of the Left

              Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
              But you constantly insist that anybody who disagrees with you on ANY ONE point is to the far left.
              Ricardo's Comparative Advantage, for instance.
              1. What does that have to do with... anything? Nothing... but we all, including you, know that.

              2. You and I, specifically, disagree on far more than one issue.

              3. Every vote you cast against a Republican, is (likely) a vote for a Democrat = a vote for their far left agenda.

              4. That makes you...? (see listing above)

              ?


              • #8
                Re: The Problem of the Left

                Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                The manipulation: The Dems have allowed the talking point vitriol of the right to be a part of the political discourse and thus become common place, rather than correct and point out the very weakness of the Republican party with respect to their exclusionary agenda. That is to say; there have been enough credible rebuttal arguments made by the left to remind people how the right has and continues to injure this country.
                The Dems have allowed nothing WRT talking point vitriol with the exception of increasing the level of vitriol. Dems actively participate in the continued raising of the level of vitriol. It is they that continue to 'poison the well' of political discourse with their vitriol escalation.

                You accuse or assume that it was the right that started the talking point vitriol, yet there's no substantiation to this assertion. If you can, great, let's see it. From my view, it was the left that started, and continues, the increasing level of vitriol, much more so than the right, barring a few nut jobs with idiot statements that you can find on either side and which shouldn't be taken seriously (aka 'legitimate rape' and 'Republicans are the Taliban'). All you have to do is listen to the Dem leadership. Case in point, the 'legitimate rape' comment was from a Republican fringe member, however, the comparison of Republicans as Taliban was a talking point uttered from the VP, minority leader Pelosi, all the way down the Dem propaganda machine, which includes the alleged unbiased and alleged 'news' media.

                Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                You and I agree on how the left has allowed its policies to become abused and made a mockery of. As for the extreme left, I don’t see the extreme left in this picture, but rather a passing influence that is capitalized on by the right-wing. In my view the extreme left consists of active socialist groups, extreme women’s and of color racial groups. The Dems have been riding on FDR’s accomplishments and those of Kennedy and Johnson. Yet the Dems have done nothing to advance those policies in the same way that the right is bent on destroying them.
                I notice that you give the extreme left what amounts to a pass, where as hammering on the extreme right, as if it were the common line and basis for commentary from the right, which it is not.

                Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                To talk about the liberal dominated coasts is disingenuous and omits the fact that the coasts are very highly populated with continuous movement of people both native and foreign. So trying to keep a conservative ideology and other such traditions as a staple is impossible. The coasts have always been fluid and highly active, unlike the fly over states where life is more stable and slow enough to actually enjoy. It should be remembered that when we see a red vs blue states, it always appears as though there is more red vs blue. However, the red is mostly just area wherein the blue is very densely populated. As you know, highly populated areas are much more fluid. I don’t see there being so much of a forcing of laws and regulations in as much as we see high demand by the populace.
                Non sequitur. The population density and population movement facts does not support the assertion that northern east and west coasts are not predominantly liberal. It is well known and well accepted fact that liberal ideology is concentrated in these highly populated northern east and west coasts. Movement within these populations hasn't changed the predominantly liberal perspective from these locals, and the fact that the liberal perspective has, and continued, to dominate these areas only serves to substantiate that there really IS a liberal echo chamber in these locals.

                I respectfully submit that you are viewing this through your liberal rose colored glasses. Yes, there are higher densities of population in the blue states and areas. With greater population you'd think that there is greater diversity of thought and ideology. Sadly, rather than this, these areas have turned into a liberal echo chamber, excluding any opposing view points and opinions, so reenforcing the liberal perspective. Rather than being proud of this, it's rather a point of shame, i.e. the lack of tolerance of other viewpoints by the left. This has been well documented.

                Originally posted by jet57 View Post
                I think that the political strife, in my view, is the direct result of shock jock radio. That form of media became permissible and so we now have Lush Rumbaugh an the likes of Michael (Wheiner) Savage. Politics has become a simple market: professional wrestling on the radio.
                And the Dems of course have done nothing to stem that tide and help the public take a more intelligent approach.
                I've listened to a few Rush Lumbaugh programs, and I don't find that he really falls into the category of 'shock jock radio'. He's not out to shock, but gives an opinion backed up by his analysis., some of which is actually quite insightful.

                That's a great leap of faith in that assertion, assuming that the Dems would in fact stem the tide of anything, let alone public stupidity (haven't the last 2 presidential elections clearly demonstrated that?), and not allowing opposing points of view; of helping the public take a more intelligent approach. Previous Dems behavior, the active suppression opposing points of view, make assuming this to be the continued behavior much more logical. Further, the Dems have engaged in the continued development of dependance on government, and destruction of the family unit, of an entire population segment, in order to continue their strangle hold on a voting block, to nothing but the detriment of the electorate in this voting block. How despicable and cynical is that?

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                • #9
                  Re: The Problem of the Left

                  Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                  2. You and I, specifically, disagree on far more than one issue.
                  Other than Free Trade, explain.

                  It has to do with a lot.
                  You seemingly just claimed there's a Far Left, not a Far Left, and then Republicans.
                  I see you as regarding anything that doesn't meet 100% of your viewpoint as being Far Left.


                  Once again, other than Free Trade, explain.

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                  • #10
                    Re: The Problem of the Left

                    The Right doesn't WANT a voice.
                    They simply want to inundate the work force.
                    Is a CEO or Magnate going to get on the radio and shout, "Open the borders so I can cut my costs"?
                    The religion bullshit is simply to demonize everyone else who isn't in Free Market lock step.

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                    • #11
                      Re: The Problem of the Left

                      Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                      Once again, other than Free Trade, explain.
                      Then you support the overturning of Roe v Wade?

                      Then you support the phase out of the Dept of Education?

                      Then you support the phase out of the EPA?

                      Want me to go on?

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                      • #12
                        Re: The Problem of the Left

                        Hmm. Based on these questions, perhaps I'm not a problem of the right after all.
                        Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                        Then you support the overturning of Roe v Wade?
                        Nope.
                        Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                        Then you support the phase out of the Dept of Education?
                        Yes.
                        Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                        Then you support the phase out of the EPA?
                        Nope, but whose power needs to be restricted, especially with activist presidents who govern via Executive Orders.
                        Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                        Want me to go on?
                        Aaaa, well, about 50% then. I guess makes me a centrist, at least in this short version. So those who have called me an ideologue can sod off!

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Problem of the Left

                          Originally posted by tsquare View Post
                          Then you support the overturning of Roe v Wade?

                          Then you support the phase out of the Dept of Education?

                          Then you support the phase out of the EPA?

                          Want me to go on?
                          Abortion is not the issue...the issue is dictating it's parameters.
                          I don't want abortion by abandon to be funded by tax money.
                          Abortion should NEVER by a campaign issue as my religions parameters are way different than those of Christian Fundamentalists.

                          The Dept of Education is a waste as it's currently run...a device to pilfer funds to State level cronies who get to define education success.
                          Oh yeah, New York State says a 60 is a passing grade so send them the money!

                          EPA...
                          Sure does suck having SOME oversight.
                          I prefer oversight along with a plethora of social media complaint sites.
                          Do you know how many restaurants in NYC have health violations?
                          And you imagine industries playing nice with the local landscape; I say they don't.

                          It's funny how the EPA doesn't discourage the massive investments in Manhattan.

                          No, I don't knee-jerk assume that the elimination of civil authorities will result in a utopia.
                          There was no utopia before these entities were created.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The Problem of the Left

                            Originally posted by USCitizen View Post
                            Abortion is not the issue...
                            As always... you miss the point.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Problem of the Left

                              Originally posted by eohrnberger View Post
                              Aaaa, well, about 50% then. I guess makes me a centrist, at least in this short version. So those who have called me an ideologue can sod off!
                              What a awful thing to say.

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