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John Birch Society

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  • #61
    Re: John Birch Society

    Originally posted by Pogo View Post
    About as well as turning China into an economic powerhouse has worked out -- very nicely for those living on Mount Olympus, and most everyone else getting bumfucked with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire.
    Pretty powerful images you created there Pogo. LOL.

    Why on earth, would we, America, work so hard to turn a communist state, a natural enemy to a republic,(I know we no longer have a republic, so it now makes sense) into an economic super power, which the wealth then allows to be a military superpower? We fought communism, and lost so many young American lives in doing that, and then all of a sudden we start enriching a form of gov't, communism, to the point that they are set to surpass the US economically? If this isn't complete insanity, then insanity doesn't exist.

    What would cause this? Well, the love of money, for a few, that is driving this, as we have allowed the love of money to create a brutal communism that now has the finances to expand its ideology worldwide. And they are setting up the perfect model. You pay working poor wages, so the big boys can get richer, and you keep the worker under the heel of your authoritarian boot. That is a perfect recipe for sending most of the income to the top few. China has their own elites, as all communist nations have always had, which is adverse to communism, who's goal was supposed to be a non state, everyone is equal, the perfect egalitarian society. With no rich elites ruling over the masses.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #62
      Re: John Birch Society

      Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
      Didn't work out for Russia did it? You describe the situation in China accurately but are they actually communist in anything but name anymore?
      Well, if the communist party is no longer ruling over the nation, that would be a "in name only".. Actually what they did, was to mix communism with the brand of capitalism practiced here with the robber barons, except their elites are good members of the communist party.

      I know you are not saying communist china is a democracy? Or a democratic republic. I think they have the best of both worlds, if an authoritarian gov't suddenly became a good thing. They are using something like capitalism, but a managed one, a state owned capitalism, to extract money from America's consumer markets, which is used to build up their military and their industrial base. Or, what America used to have, which is what won us ww2.

      I have little doubt if the trend continues, we will be in a position like Japan was in ww2. And that is, not having the ability to out manufacture the US, which is what it would have taken for them to stay in the war, and win it. One of those generals said early on, that Japan could only produce 70 billion tons of steel, while the US could produce 700 billion tons, and that this ability would beat Japan. SO, what has changed since that time? Is the ability to manufacture war goods, no longer important? It is evident that neither china, Russia, nor the US will ever start a nuclear war, for there are no winners. You can only win in conventional wars, the old fashioned type where you throw men and equipment at the enemy, and can replace what is lost due to manufacturing capacity.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #63
        Re: John Birch Society

        Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
        What does my primary skills have to do with this? And, your analogy is not a very good one.

        I've already said that in some ways things that are socialistic appear communistic to those who have experienced living under military dictatorships, more socialist nations, and even more communistic nations. If one has lived under a government telling them what to think, what to do, what to feel, where to work, what you cannot say then it will always invoke emotions when thinking you are seeing a current nation go that direction. I can see someone coming to the US who lived under the USSR, or Cuba, or North Korea perhaps suggesting they see elements of strong socialism or communism here.

        I am not trying to completely discount that take on things. My issue, still, is on an academia level socialism is not communism. If it were otherwise we would not bother distinguishing between the two. They have many similar properties but they clearly are not the same. Moreover it is not all that difficult to educate oneself on the key differences.
        You are splitting atoms here.

        Just because something is not text book does not mean that it is not what it appears to be.

        From a purely textbook position Communism is the perfect form of government and a Democratic Republic is one of the worst. According to the text book our government and system should have been absolute chaos from the beginning and the Soviet Union should be a Paradise of living. BY THE BOOK. But when applied to the real world it fails.

        As a computer technology person with 3 decades under my belt, I can say first hand that what Microsoft Teaches and expects when you take their courses to pass and get your MSCE certification does not always work in the real world. If you cannot take a computer program and apply the textbook to the real world how can you expect anything that is not so black and white to work.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #64
          Re: John Birch Society

          Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
          You know, back when I was in public school, it was said, and said often that on paper socialism looks like a very fair system, as it is egalitarian. But in practice it is always a brutal thing, and not workable. Why is this? Well, that is easy to see, if one just looks at human nature. Socialism as was laid out on paper could not be pulled off, due to human nature, due to the sociopaths that end up in power, that demands classes, that demands a few be much better off than everyone else. The same thing happens in capitalism, and is a corrupting factor as well, yet even a corrupt capitalism is better at achieving prosperity than socialism as practiced.

          As I said, I have no doubt at all that the socialism as laid out on paper will triumph, as the brains of humanity evolve, and intelligence is able to affect systems, instead of the very worst side of human nature. For at its heart, that unobtained model of socialism is just a better principled system for the future of humanity. Yet it can never work, as long as a group of human beings demand to be the elites, and have their own special class of "entitlement".. It can never work as long as I demand to be much richer than others. But this is the human nature that we will eventually evolve out of, and this will be forced upon humanity, by conditions.

          The great demand of a capitalist system is that more and more profits be extracted from finite resources, and that more profits be extracted by exploiting others for their work. And this simply is untenable over the long haul, for humanity. I think it's very clear. But I can certainly understand how a capitalist would disagree, but you may as well disagree that the sun will come up tomorrow. Capitalism as we have come to know it is doomed, for it can never provide what it takes for all of humanity to survive. It can only provide for a part of the society that indulges in it. And sooner or later, humanity will reject it, as the brain evolves and is able to intelligently see solutions.

          Humanity will have to devise an economic system that does not deplete the earth of all resources, and it will have to devise a system that provides for all citizens within a nation. For that should be what an economic model is concerned with, instead of being concerned with how to make a few extraordinary rich, as you have others starving, or doing without the basic things for survival. Capitalism as we now know it, is only concerned with a few, and their degree of wealth. Human intelligence will have to evolve out of this mindset, and the sooner the better for humanity.

          Now, perhaps it is possible to manage capitalism where it has the goal of providing the essentials for survival for all, instead of creating a rich elite class. And if it is possible, that too is an option for the future. But it won't look like what we have known as capitalism, but a 180 from that.

          Of course what is needed is for us to lose this self centered attitude and to hell with others. For that is what creates the problems under capitalism as well as socialism as practiced. I think humanity will be forced to evolve psychologically out of this very ancient paradigm. For there is no other way. The root cause of the failure of either socialism or capitalism to provide for all of humanity lies in the age old human nature, that is the most destructive force on this planet, when it comes to human society and the welfare of society. This is certainly obvious if a person looks with seriousness, and is concerned about others and humanity.
          You forget freedom.

          When I was in college I was actually following a double major, Business and Philosophy. Human nature is to strive, to evolve and improve oneself and family and to a lesser extent those around us. Socialism among its many faults is the subjugation of success. One persons success must be divided among those who do not succeed. Socialism cannot work correctly nor can communism until the ID/Ego is totally gone. When no one wants to better themselves nor control others. One of the base pieces of being human is the need to have more, be more. If some homeless man didn't care about improving himself he would not hold a sign in all types of weather begging for money. Those on welfare would not push for more welfare money they would just sit idly collecting whatever.

          Socialism and Communism will not work as long as someone wants more. You might as well say bring on interplanetary travel like in Star Trek in the next decade, odds are infinitely against it.

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #65
            Re: John Birch Society

            Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
            You are splitting atoms here.

            Just because something is not text book does not mean that it is not what it appears to be.

            From a purely textbook position Communism is the perfect form of government and a Democratic Republic is one of the worst. According to the text book our government and system should have been absolute chaos from the beginning and the Soviet Union should be a Paradise of living. BY THE BOOK. But when applied to the real world it fails.

            As a computer technology person with 3 decades under my belt, I can say first hand that what Microsoft Teaches and expects when you take their courses to pass and get your MSCE certification does not always work in the real world. If you cannot take a computer program and apply the textbook to the real world how can you expect anything that is not so black and white to work.
            Noted, but not a bit of this makes Obama a communist. And as noted above campaign Obama is different than realized President Obama.

            Others have commented on this too, his actions to date barely qualify as being European Socialist even though ideologically he leans that way.

            All of this supports the notion that if anything we have a Moderate Democrat on our hands, and by default cannot be true socialist or true communist.

            That is all I am trying to get at. So when I hear "Obama is a communist" I equate that to equally unfounded statements like "Obama is a devout Muslim." The I file then whole thing away under conspiracy theory.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #66
              Re: John Birch Society

              Originally posted by Sluggo View Post
              Noted, but not a bit of this makes Obama a communist. And as noted above campaign Obama is different than realized President Obama.

              Others have commented on this too, his actions to date barely qualify as being European Socialist even though ideologically he leans that way.

              All of this supports the notion that if anything we have a Moderate Democrat on our hands, and by default cannot be true socialist or true communist.

              That is all I am trying to get at. So when I hear "Obama is a communist" I equate that to equally unfounded statements like "Obama is a devout Muslim." The I file then whole thing away under conspiracy theory.
              One of the things he said in a speech was about spreading the wealth/redistributing it. That is communism. He and several of the other Democrats have between them espoused communist Ideals.

              You also know a man by his friends.

              Frank Marshall Davis - Member of Communist Party
              As well as many of the Democrats who are Communist Party Members.

              Bill Ayers is his friend.
              Rashid Khalidi
              His mother was a Communist Sympathizer
              He has admitted to attending Communist activities while in College.

              These are just some quick references.

              Almost every action he has taken have been in complete opposition to our Constitution, our Freedoms and our Liberties. I cannot believe someone can be so blind that they do not see the trend.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #67
                Re: John Birch Society

                Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                One of the things he said in a speech was about spreading the wealth/redistributing it. That is communism. He and several of the other Democrats have between them espoused communist Ideals.

                You also know a man by his friends.

                Frank Marshall Davis - Member of Communist Party
                As well as many of the Democrats who are Communist Party Members.

                Bill Ayers is his friend.
                Rashid Khalidi
                His mother was a Communist Sympathizer
                He has admitted to attending Communist activities while in College.

                These are just some quick references.

                Almost every action he has taken have been in complete opposition to our Constitution, our Freedoms and our Liberties. I cannot believe someone can be so blind that they do not see the trend.
                Ayers was interviewed by Megan on Fox this week, and one didn't get any idea that the two were close friends. In fact, he said he had not been in contact with Obama at all.

                Obama actually is just another puppet of the oligarchy, and of course is liberal in flavor, whatever that means today.

                Spreading the wealth could be a communist principle, but the way communists do it is by state ownership of all means of production and distribution, and not by progressive taxation. In communism you are not taking away from the rich to care for the poor, for there are not supposed to be any rich in communism.

                I think people throw a very wide net when they equate redistributing SOME of the wealth of the rich, to the have nots, to communism. That isn't how real deal communism works, although to date we have never had real deal communism in practice. For those states that are accused of it, or themselves call it communism, still have their rich elites, who have the good stuff, while the rest of them are just poor people, with no decent level of prosperity.

                If Obama was trying to get rid of private enterprise, and wanting the gov't to own all means of production, which would then be doled out to all people, then there wouldn't be any doubt he was a communist. Since he has never advocated that, how can anyone accuse him of being one with a straight face?

                No doubt he does believe in taxing the rich and giving to the poor, as I do, yet I am not a communist. I believe the rich, in this oligarchy are getting more than their fair share, and that other people matter as much as they do. That isn't communism, that is fairness. For I believe the Creator gave all of the resources of this earth to be shared in, so that all might live, and then left it up to human nature to do that. You could do that under capitalism, but it would be a different brand than we have today. Without the public ownership of all means of production and distribution. You would just have to put handcuffs on the elite sociopaths to pull it off. Now, this isn't communism, it's simply good sense. It is no different from reigning in the bully on the school yard. And taking away his means to be a bully.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #68
                  Re: John Birch Society

                  Originally posted by JDJarvis View Post
                  Didn't work out for Russia did it? You describe the situation in China accurately but are they actually communist in anything but name anymore?
                  No, but they were getting screwed long before the Bolsheviks showed up. Lenin's greatest failure was letting Stalin consolidate power. By the time he realized his error he was too sick to do anything about it, and the people paid dearly for that. If Bukharin had taken up Lenin's position instead of Stalin, they would almost certainly have been spared the horrors that Stalin inflicted on them, in which case they might have ended up better off than they were under the czar.

                  As for China, state capitalism is an oxymoron as far as I'm concerned and the only thing I can think of that's more appropriate than communist is shithole. Take your pick.

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #69
                    Re: John Birch Society

                    Originally posted by Blue Doggy View Post
                    Pretty powerful images you created there Pogo. LOL.

                    Why on earth, would we, America, work so hard to turn a communist state, a natural enemy to a republic,(I know we no longer have a republic, so it now makes sense) into an economic super power, which the wealth then allows to be a military superpower? We fought communism, and lost so many young American lives in doing that, and then all of a sudden we start enriching a form of gov't, communism, to the point that they are set to surpass the US economically? If this isn't complete insanity, then insanity doesn't exist.

                    What would cause this? Well, the love of money, for a few, that is driving this, as we have allowed the love of money to create a brutal communism that now has the finances to expand its ideology worldwide. And they are setting up the perfect model. You pay working poor wages, so the big boys can get richer, and you keep the worker under the heel of your authoritarian boot. That is a perfect recipe for sending most of the income to the top few. China has their own elites, as all communist nations have always had, which is adverse to communism, who's goal was supposed to be a non state, everyone is equal, the perfect egalitarian society. With no rich elites ruling over the masses.
                    Marx's thinking re revolution was harebrained, IMO. Capitalism wasn't the nefarious bogeyman that he took it to be; central banking, however, most certainly was, being in diametrical oppostion to economic equilibrium.

                    The problem is how to decentralize power, and Marx clearly did not have the answer.

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                    • #70
                      Re: John Birch Society

                      Originally posted by Pogo View Post
                      Marx's thinking re revolution was harebrained, IMO. Capitalism wasn't the nefarious bogeyman that he took it to be; central banking, however, most certainly was, being in diametrical oppostion to economic equilibrium.

                      The problem is how to decentralize power, and Marx clearly did not have the answer.
                      I will agree with the central banking issues. I would rather see a loose grouping of banks. There is a reason most of the Founding Fathers didn't want a central national bank. It is adverse to Freedom and Liberty AND it is not a Conservative Thing.

                      It was also the Democrats who helped bring it back as well.

                      Creature from Jekyl Island is a good read and one other I have on my shelf downstairs.

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                      • #71
                        Re: John Birch Society

                        Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                        One of the things he said in a speech was about spreading the wealth/redistributing it. That is communism. He and several of the other Democrats have between them espoused communist Ideals.

                        You also know a man by his friends.

                        Frank Marshall Davis - Member of Communist Party
                        As well as many of the Democrats who are Communist Party Members.

                        Bill Ayers is his friend.
                        Rashid Khalidi
                        His mother was a Communist Sympathizer
                        He has admitted to attending Communist activities while in College.

                        These are just some quick references.

                        Almost every action he has taken have been in complete opposition to our Constitution, our Freedoms and our Liberties. I cannot believe someone can be so blind that they do not see the trend.
                        Technically, not it is not. And if I am known by my friends then I am in total Christian, atheist, agnostic, fiscal conservative, social conservative, liberal, social liberal, libertarian, capitalist, socialist, communist (I do have a friend that is communist,) philosophically leaning to Natural Law, Human Law, and Eternal Law (all at the same time,) etc. By association I am many things which makes your theory on who Obama has a "friends" entirely irrelevant.

                        All taxation is wealth redistribution, as at least in theory all that goes out of the economy via taxes, fees, and other means of monetary extraction goes into government hands to then distribute back out in a variety of ways. Even to the military, or anything else spent on via taxes.

                        You are glancing over (still) that communism is both an economic system and political ideology of a sociologically class-less, government-less, religion-less society (in theory.) Last time I checked I have not seen much from Obama on killing off all private ownership of production and possessions, killing off all political parties but one, then killing off our own government and then killing off all religions for good measure. Socialism on the other hand is just an economic system that seeks to achieve equality among its citizens. That is why communism is generally referred to as the more extreme version of socialism. Some of the properties of one fall into the other, but not all.

                        Socialism is a liberal system as ideally the majority of the people have a say in how the economy should run even though socialism can allow for private ownership of certain things. Communism is a more strict adherence to the resources of the economy collectively owned (or state held) then controlled by centralization. Under socialism one can own personal property to an extent, under communism this is not the case. To be honest it makes communism more conservative than liberalism as at some point economic function of communism is decided upon by the few, whatever form of that centralization "authority" is. In theory the idea is best for all, in practice you get single party authoritarian systems of power (and a strong case for why most attempts that lean far enough that way end in failure.)

                        As for *distribution* of wealth (not *redistribution* of wealth, big difference) socialism and communism still do not agree. Socialism is to the *productivity* of the individual where communism is to the *needs* of the individual. Hence, why socialism can tolerate strictly controlled capitalism where communism strictly opposes any form of capitalism. For communism to work there is no market economy, for socialism to work there can be a mixed economy.

                        If anything, campaign Obama is a European Socialist while President Obama is just a moderate liberal generally basing ideas on the notion of securing a vote in exchange for less contribution to the treasury, more spending from the government, or both at the same time. And that makes him neither extreme socialist or communist no matter who he hangs out with, appoints, reads a book by, watches on TV, listens to on the radio, or whatever else.
                        Last edited by Sluggo; 07-03-2014, 04:22 PM. Reason: typos

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                        • #72
                          Re: John Birch Society

                          Originally posted by Wlessard View Post
                          I will agree with the central banking issues. I would rather see a loose grouping of banks. There is a reason most of the Founding Fathers didn't want a central national bank. It is adverse to Freedom and Liberty AND it is not a Conservative Thing.

                          It was also the Democrats who helped bring it back as well.

                          Creature from Jekyl Island is a good read and one other I have on my shelf downstairs.
                          This is probably the best history available for the Federal Reserve System. Somewhat lengthy but well worth the time invested. Among the more interesting subjects raised is "colonial scrip", which very few know about -- which is quite shocking considering it's historical significance, especially re the American revolution.

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                          • #73
                            Re: John Birch Society

                            I read some JBS literature over 40 years ago. It made sense, but I never joined the organization. They likely went a bit overboard on the power of organizations to control everything, although it's likely those organizations do put things in motion to hopefully achieve their goals.

                            I certainly trust what the JBS teaches much more than what Obama and his cohorts are all about.

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