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Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

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  • #16
    Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

    Originally posted by wooyarn View Post
    While your examples do show some voter fraud, some by regular people, some by elected/appointed people. The one thing they have in common is they got caught. While the system isn't perfect, it does work, sometimes.
    It also mentions illegal alliens several times.

    And I agree that it is an indication that the current system, if we can actually call it a system, works sometimes.

    I think there's probably a great deal more voter fraud going on but the fact that we really don't have a proper system of checking it prevents us from identifying and prosecuting it.

    It brings to mind the adage, "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence". The fact that we aren't catching more fraudulent voting, when we clearly do not have an effective system in place to catch fraudulent voters, isn't in any way proof positive that there isn't more fraudulent voting occuring.

    Which brings up cost. If people are required by the state to get an ID at their expense means that people are forced, by the Gov, to spend their money to appease a group of people. That goes against what a lot of people on this forum are dead set against. Then if the Gov. picks up the tab at tax payers expense you have people that are dead set against paying for anything for others.
    Definately legitimate criticisims but not really things that I get to wound up about.

    מה מכילות החדשות?


    • #17
      Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

      Originally posted by wooyarn View Post
      While your examples do show some voter fraud, some by regular people, some by elected/appointed people. The one thing they have in common is they got caught. While the system isn't perfect, it does work, sometimes.
      They get caught only when there is an effort by outside parties to catch them. Then the publicity forces the authorities to act.

      Imagine if there was no IRS. We paid our taxes using the honor system. It would appear that there is no fraud, right? We'd only suspect. Here's the reality: even with an IRS, there are only about 2000 cases of tax fraud convictions per year. When Minnesota tried, they found 118 cases of voter fraud. Extrapolate that to the country, and voter fraud is a much bigger problem than tax fraud. yet we spend billions relentlessy pursuing it, we force people to prove what they claim on their forms, and sometimes we just audit just for the sake of auditing(never mind that for ANY other crime, probable cause would be necessary to initiate a search).



      As for the IDs, I would say that a very large percentage of people do have them. However their are some that don't for whatever reason. In a city it would be fairly easy to get an ID, but where I live the closest DMV is a little over 50 miles away.
      Everyone has ID unless they are completely dependent on someone else to take care of them. It is literally impossible to get by in this country without presenting ID in many daily situations. Unless those situations are handled for you by someone else. And if we are disenfranchising those who are no longer competent to take care of themselves, that's not a great loss.

      מה מכילות החדשות?


      • #18
        Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

        Originally posted by HonorsDaddy;2048517[B
        ]Lot harder than you think actually. Not every county computerizes the records and not every state shares with every other state. Then there's the delay in entry, differences in spelling between voter registration and death certificate, and a whole host of other issues. [/B]

        A far better method to address this on a state level would be some kind of proof that the person voting has the legal right to do so...perhaps via an ID of some kind...
        Then that's something the State/Local Gov. needs to address and fix.

        Some states allow non-citizens to get a D.L. at least some did not too long ago. If that's the case, then we'd have some non-citizens with state IDs that could vote.

        מה מכילות החדשות?


        • #19
          Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

          Originally posted by adaher View Post
          They get caught only when there is an effort by outside parties to catch them. Then the publicity forces the authorities to act.When Minnesota tried, they found 118 cases of voter fraud.

          Everyone has ID unless they are completely dependent on someone else to take care of them. It is literally impossible to get by in this country without presenting ID in many daily situations. Unless those situations are handled for you by someone else. And if we are disenfranchising those who are no longer competent to take care of themselves, that's not a great loss.
          Then the State/Local Gov. should put more effort and support in these outside parties. If Minnesota tried, and were able to find 118 cases of voter fraud, then the other States can and should do the same.

          As for those that are no longer competent to take care of themselves, that could cover a large host of reasons. Just because someone is not physically able to do the day to day things, and needs someone to help, doesn't mean that they are not mentally sharp enough to vote by mail. How do propose to check their IDs? Or you just going to tell them that if they can't walk into a polling place then they can't vote?

          מה מכילות החדשות?


          • #20
            Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

            For people who are unable to care for themselves but mentally competent, absentee ballots should be provided. We need absentee ballot reform because that's a major, major source of fraud. Most of the widespread fraud that swings elections these days is the stealing of hundreds of absentee ballots and filling them out on behalf of people. A couple of officials in New York got indicted for that last year. Absentee ballot fraud is endemic and the process has become too easy. Absentee ballots should be limited to those who can't come to the polls. And the info they provide on the form should match public records. Currently, you can register your cat and you'll get a card.

            מה מכילות החדשות?


            • #21
              Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

              Originally posted by wooyarn View Post
              While your examples do show some voter fraud, some by regular people, some by elected/appointed people. The one thing they have in common is they got caught. While the system isn't perfect, it does work, sometimes.

              As for the IDs, I would say that a very large percentage of people do have them. However their are some that don't for whatever reason. In a city it would be fairly easy to get an ID, but where I live the closest DMV is a little over 50 miles away.
              Which brings up cost. If people are required by the state to get an ID at their expense means that people are forced, by the Gov, to spend their money to appease a group of people. That goes against what a lot of people on this forum are dead set against. Then if the Gov. picks up the tab at tax payers expense you have people that are dead set against paying for anything for others. That's kjnda being between a rock and a hard place.

              You can't forget the mail in votes, how are you going to check their IDs?
              I'm gonna kinda call bullshit on some of that - someone without a picture ID in this day and age?

              Lets see - that would mean they dont drive, dont have a bank account, never buy alcohol, never cash checks from anyone (including their job), oh yeah - don't HAVE a job, never got on a plane, basically haven't left their house since their 18th birthday.

              Nope - not buying it. Seriously. You might have like one guy in the entire country that fits that profile.

              מה מכילות החדשות?


              • #22
                Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                Originally posted by HonorsDaddy View Post
                I'm gonna kinda call bullshit on some of that - someone without a picture ID in this day and age?

                Lets see - that would mean they dont drive, dont have a bank account, never buy alcohol, never cash checks from anyone (including their job), oh yeah - don't HAVE a job, never got on a plane, basically haven't left their house since their 18th birthday.

                Nope - not buying it. Seriously. You might have like one guy in the entire country that fits that profile.
                I can agree, there's prob. not very many that don't have ID. However, if go to the swamps of LA, or the mountains in W.Virgina or any of the other sparsely populated areas of the country you'd prob. find lots that don't have ID and have no real need for one.

                מה מכילות החדשות?


                • #23
                  Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                  Originally posted by adaher View Post
                  For people who are unable to care for themselves but mentally competent, absentee ballots should be provided. We need absentee ballot reform because that's a major, major source of fraud. Most of the widespread fraud that swings elections these days is the stealing of hundreds of absentee ballots and filling them out on behalf of people. A couple of officials in New York got indicted for that last year. Absentee ballot fraud is endemic and the process has become too easy. Absentee ballots should be limited to those who can't come to the polls. And the info they provide on the form should match public records. Currently, you can register your cat and you'll get a card.
                  There's just no evidence that it's as wide spread as you say. It is happening, and people are getting caught and put in jail for it. Is everyone getting caught, I would say no. But it's hard to say how many are getting away with it.

                  How would you reform the absentee ballots to ensure they're legal?

                  מה מכילות החדשות?


                  • #24
                    Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                    Originally posted by wooyarn View Post
                    I can agree, there's prob. not very many that don't have ID. However, if go to the swamps of LA, or the mountains in W.Virgina or any of the other sparsely populated areas of the country you'd prob. find lots that don't have ID and have no real need for one.
                    If we were talking about LA or WV, great. We're talking about Texas though. Either way - i still wont accept that there is more than maybe one person in the nation of voting age and a legal voter who functions in 21st century America without any ID.

                    מה מכילות החדשות?


                    • #25
                      Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                      Originally posted by HonorsDaddy View Post
                      If we were talking about LA or WV, great. We're talking about Texas though. Either way - i still wont accept that there is more than maybe one person in the nation of voting age and a legal voter who functions in 21st century America without any ID.
                      I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

                      מה מכילות החדשות?


                      • #26
                        Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                        Originally posted by wooyarn View Post
                        There's just no evidence that it's as wide spread as you say. It is happening, and people are getting caught and put in jail for it. Is everyone getting caught, I would say no. But it's hard to say how many are getting away with it.

                        How would you reform the absentee ballots to ensure they're legal?
                        It's not hard. Everyone who applies must give their address and Social Security number. All the government has to do is verify. Currently, you can just order 100 sent to some office building.

                        מה מכילות החדשות?


                        • #27
                          Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                          liberal logic at work.
                          the problem with voter fruad is that becasue you are not allowed to check to see if someone is who they claim to be you have to take their word for it and if they are lieing you dont know it, they then get to vote illegally. but liberals belive that if a person is going to break the law they will tell the truth when they asked who they are and let themselves be cought.

                          מה מכילות החדשות?


                          • #28
                            Re: Please Submit Examples Of Voter I.D. Fraud

                            Originally posted by adaher View Post
                            It's not hard. Everyone who applies must give their address and Social Security number. All the government has to do is verify. Currently, you can just order 100 sent to some office building.
                            I'm not real sure how absentee ballots work, I've never had to use it. How do they apply? Do they have to go somewhere or do it on the phone etc...

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